Do Workshops *actually* Work?

[RudallRose]

As someone who has given my share of workshops -- and sat in on a few -- I've always been interested in whether the people who attend the class are leaving with information they hoped they would get.

In other words, when you register for the workshop, what are you hoping to get.....and then what did you actually leave with?

Were you disappointed?

Were you pleased?

It's been my impression that just because someone is a good player or performer that they are not automatically a good teacher. I can think of several persons like this.

for me, for instance, a poor workshop is one that merely teaches you a tune. That is a waste of time and money, in my opinion. I get nothing more out of it than I would get on my own at home or at a session.

What would you like to see in a workshop that is different than a private lesson?

What have you gotten in a private lesson that you thought useful or, for that matter, as a waste of time and money?

I'm interested to hear your experiences.

dm

[Jack Bradshaw]

Never been dissapointed.....I'd agree that the "tune" itself is the least important aspect. Much more interesting is the way the "teacher" looks at the playing of the "chune". Actual teaching ability, as in a private instructor, has never impressed me as vital to a workshop...much more important is that the "teacher" be a good player w/ a fair amount of individual "style" (of which there are many)

[Gabriel]

I expect to learn new things about technique from a workshop, i.e. embouchure tips&hints, phrasing, breath control etc. - ideally connected with learning tunes. But I can also learn tunes at home, without an instructor. Learning technique without advise is a lot harder (for me).

[sbfluter]

I would like to go to a workshop someday if for no other reason that to meet others, get some tips on playing and learning and discover other places to meet others who are also learning and playing this music.

[tin tin]

I have very much enjoyed the workshops I've attended. The most recent ones were with Mike Rafferty at the St. Louis Tionol and at the Milwaukee Irishfest Summer School with Stephanie Geremia (currently touring with Liadan).

The Rafferty workshop was just tunes (and some stories), and while I generally hope for more than just new tunes from a workshop, this was an exception. Learning tunes from a source like Mike Rafferty was great. Also, he taught wonderful tunes, including some very nice ones called Gan Ainm. I'm always amazed at the number of tunes sharing that name.

The recent four-day workshop in Milwaukee was satisfying because while learning tunes, Steph also discussed and demonstrated phrasing, breathing, variation, etc. so that we not only learned the tune but also ways to approach it. That's pretty much my workshop ideal. I also took a private lesson and received some very helpful critiques of my playing. Plenty of stuff to work on, now. Overall, the experience was very energizing.

The individual attention at a private lesson can't be beat, but it's also nice to be around other players at a workshop, who might bring up interesting questions, etc. And one can usually learn something from the others in the class, too.

[mcdafydd]

As far as workshops go, I love meeting people and having contact with great teachers. However, I'm usually left feeling like I didn't get "enough" from classes. If I want to actually learn something about how to play better, I'd like to have the teacher listen to me individually and tell me what to work on, based on their experiences, style, etc. In this regard, I really like the classical masterclass approach. It gets people up there to play in front of others, and gives you very personally useful information. Usually, I also find myself learning from the other players' needs as well. However, ITM workshops seem to rarely teach in this fashion.

I like learning tunes as well, but I still feel like I learn so many tunes all the time that I'm not sure when I'll use the ones I learn from a workshop with others.

I think a mixture of classes is good for a longer workshop. Learning a tune from a master and then hearing about where they learned it and getting a sense of the folk process they've lived in can be wonderful. But, I personally want to learn to play better and would like to get this kind of knowledge from people too.

[dow]

From the standpoint of one who is almost exclusively self-taught, I'd say that workshops are a tremendous opportunity. Last year, I had a week-long class with Mike Rafferty, and my experience was similar to Tintin's. Gobs of tunes, many of which aren't heard much anywhere anymore. Wonderful stories about the tunes or who they're from or where he learned them. Not much on technique. This was an ideal first workshop for me, as it gave me 31 tunes that I probably wouldn't have learned or even heard at a time when I had only a handful of tunes that I could play even remotely well. Did I learn all of the tunes completely? No, but I've got them recorded from a great player, and I refer back to them and continue to work through them. It's interesting how I can hear the first phrase of one and then pick it back up.

This year, by comparison, the class was taught by Kevin Crawford. Great guy, very genuine and welcoming. He made a point to learn people's names and made even the most inexperienced players feel included and important. We learned about 1/3 as many tunes as I got from Mike, but much more time was spent on ornamentation and articulation, and when and where different ornaments would or wouldn't fit. Lots of good stories, as well. Last year, I would have been lost in Kevin's class, as I was only just getting a handle on the instrument, and had little in the way of background to apply the technique I picked up in his class to.

An additional benefit is the opportunity to meet and interact with other flute players from other parts of the country and other countries. One of the guys who was in both last year's and this year's class is from Italy. Great player, and a nice guy. Additionally, the opportunity to spend a week immersed in Irish music is invaluable.

For someone like me, who is the only flute player in a very small session, these experiences are invaluable. I'm already looking forward to the next one, although I don't know when it will be.

[Wormdiet]

I had a similar experience to Dow's in Kevin C's class. - About a tune per day to work on. What made that method effective was "homework" - the class performed in a concert at the end of the week-long workshop. That made us work and pay attention a lot more. I thoroughly enjoyed the week and did learn a good deal of technique.

But in general, I too would appreciate more personal feedback. Devote one hour out of a week to just listening to each student play a tune, and then a critique of their playing. I think a lot of instructors are unfomfortable with this (and probably a lot of students would be as well) but it is invaluable.


Something else that we can get, out of workshops, isn;t really technical, but more social, I suppose. Learning the personal anecdotes behind the tunes, and getting to know, for a short time anyway, the players, puts the music in context and makes it far, far more meaningful.

[cadancer]

In other words, when you register for the workshop, what are you hoping to get.....and then what did you actually leave with?

Most important to me... Inspiration !!!

A good teacher can open up a student's eyes to new *posibilities*.

Like... Listen to this! and Isn't this great! Learning about things that were not even "on your radar" can open up your eyes.

A major part of this is the student just listening and watching very carefully to an accomplished player.

...john

P.S. Speaking of inspiration, I love your track on the Flute Obsession CD.

[Jennie]

As far as workshops go, I love meeting people and having contact with great teachers. However, I'm usually left feeling like I didn't get "enough" from classes. If I want to actually learn something about how to play better, I'd like to have the teacher listen to me individually and tell me what to work on, based on their experiences, style, etc. In this regard, I really like the classical masterclass approach. It gets people up there to play in front of others, and gives you very personally useful information. Usually, I also find myself learning from the other players' needs as well. However, ITM workshops seem to rarely teach in this fashion.

(Initial disclaimer: I'm a veteran of only 2 workshops. But I spend every day in the classroom. That counts, even if it's not a flute class.)

In my workshop with Mike Rafferty last year, he suggested listening to individuals. There was someone, or maybe more than one, who reacted negatively to that idea, so Mike never asked again. I was disappointed, because I would have liked some individual feedback.

Kevin did something that approached that need during the Augusta workshop. He inserted a break during which people could practice and ask for a listen. I'll say that Kevin was especially careful to be encouraging; he left out any comments that could be remotely felt as criticism. Wise approach, and appreciated by all in this setting. His humor and sensitivity made everyone feel welcome. It wasn't easy to get individual pointers on technique, though. I did manage to ask a few specifics on embouchure. He told me I'd be all right, no big problems, just a question of time and practice. This was elating! although probably not as constructive as a particular suggestion might have been.

I'd love to try a master class session. At this point I think I have the guts to play in front of a class. It would fly if the instructor had the social grace to provide suggestions without too much pointing out of faults. I think it takes courage on both sides, the teacher and the student. One of the fiddle classes went too far on this idea, I heard, spending all of their time on individual instruction and not enough work with the whole group.

Seems to me that at this point in traditional music, it IS about the tunes. That's where the focus is, for most workshops that I've heard about. Technique is for the private lessons. I'd love to tap into that a little more, and I think a workshop would be a great setting for it if it were balanced carefully.

Jenni

[jemtheflute]

Mmmmm, some great experiences and comments here, but I wonder if week-long, or even two-three day courses are quite what David M meant?
I have had experiences of the sort mostly described above, especially at Hammy's Flute Meeting a year and a bit ago, where we had most of a day each with each of three tutors, plus other stuff. I got loads from it, technical mostly, but also tunes. (Picking up tunes wasn't really what I wanted from it, so I didn't work that hard on them, just used them as vehicles within the classes. I keep meaning to go back to my recordings of the classes for a couple of tunes in particular - some that Harry taught - but I never seem to get round to it!) I do agree with a previous poster, though, that especially in trad music, one should not divorce technique from a context of tunes - at a well given class, learning tunes will itself provide the context for technical issues to be discussed.

However, I wonder if David was asking more about the common Folk Festival (rather than specialist course/summer school scenario) type "workshop" where typically one gets an hour or an hour and a half with the tutor - total.

I have both given and received such workshops. As a tutor, in such a time scale it is difficult to do very much other than simply teach a couple of tunes with some attention to/discussion of technique, plus a quick whip round the punters to advise on any obvious problems they exhibit or ask about. What you can do also has to be readily adaptable/accessible to whoever turns up - usually a very mixed bag. It's kind of a fast food situation. As a punter at such things, I've had good experiences and bad, and a lot depends on the tutor and his personality, approach and preparation. I once went to one given by the late, great Frankie Kennedy, and it was a disaster. He'd had a late night, turned up very late, didn't want to be there and was very perfunctory. I don't think anyone got much out of it and some were quite angry - such a pity. Much also depends on the context of the other participants - I once went to one led by Steafan Hannigan which, quite rightly, he had to pitch at the predominance of attendees who were mostly lower secondary age Boehm flute players or beginner whistlers. I did get something from it, but not much, other than an abiding dislike of the tune The Primrose Lass!

From both perspectives, tutor or punter, I think that short workshops like that work best if segregated by experience/ability - it is much harder to be inclusive in so little time. All-day or longer workshops give the tutor time to get to know and thence to cater better for individuals (if s/he does the job properly), so mixed ability can work better and even be advantageous to all.

As a tutor, one event of which I feel quite proud is actually getting a lass to take up the flute. It was a half day community thing based in a school and most of the participants were upper primary/lower secondary ages. Part of what I was doing was just showing instruments to people. One girl whose wasn't playing anything but most of whose friends did was hanging about with them and was clearly fascinated. I encouraged and persuaded her to try the flute (Bb and F band flutes) and it was obvious she was a complete natural - once shown how to make a sound, she was off, better than some of her friends who'd been playing for some time (Boehm) - maybe to their chagrin! When I taught the group a tune on the whistle, she was the quickest learner. I was very positive towards her and also had a chance to speak to her mother.
Some months later I bumped into the then peripatetic (classical) woodwind teacher for the area where the workshop had been (he'd been involved) in the pub where our local session is. He told me that the girl in question had actually taken up the flute (Boehm) and was doing very well. I was immensely pleased, as you can imagine. Obviously her friends and family context was conducive, but I and my old flutes and trad music had been the catalyst. Since he (the peri) left the area, the parents of a small group of the kids have had me give fortnightly extracurricular sessions to them - so some two years later I met the lass in question again, and she's doing well and in love with her flute!
This may be sentimental of me, but even if she doesn't go far on a classical path or drops music in her adult life, I still feel I really achieved something there.

I do like the idea of the Masterclass type scenario, though I haven't really experienced it. At the Flute Meeting, Jean-Michel did go around the class and get us each to play something and gave us constructive feedback/criticism. When I give a longer workshop with sufficient time, I like to get everyone to play individually for me at some stage, and I almost always start with the classic ice-breaker of getting everyone to tell the group who they are and where they are coming from musically.

I have also been to "workshops" which were more a "Meet the Artist" type scenario where the tutor mostly talks about his/her music and instruments and demonstrates things (techniques, musical points etc.) plus performs a couple of numbers, without the punters necessarily contributing other than by questioning. This can be very successful and useful.

[MJS]

As a self-professed workshop junkie (I've driven 12 hours to attend "local" workshops), I find that I get a lot out of workshops, on a couple of levels.
As a preface, I am just an intermediate level player on the flute and pipes, but I find that for my level of skill, I benefit from both the instructors skills, and as well as those of my fellow students. But you have to be patient and listen. Its not all about YOU anymore, but about the group, and a lot of time may be spent listening to others fumble through things until it is your turn to stumble along the same path. I see people getting bored and impatient all the time, but if you listen closely and think about things, you always find something that is useful.
Successful strategies may depend on class size;
1) for larger classes or short workshops, many instructors do teach tunes, but most also use them as a vehicle for talking about technique, phrasing and historical context rather than just for "getting" the tune itself. I find this really interesting and helpful.
2) in a recent week-long workshop (1/2 days, 2-hour classes), the instructor did something slightly different each day (smaller class of about 10 people):
Day one: strictly technique, basics and more adventuresome, to get an idea where we all were.
Day two: round the room with your favorite "party tune" (better on day two, when we knew eachother slightly, and were less intimidated) I hate this, but it is good to be put on the spot to actually play something - the instructor then helped each of us discover something that could be improved, or suggested variations.
Day three: Taught us a new tune, with enough technique to challenge us.
Day four: Found a tune we all knew (an old time-worn session classic), and worked on technique to make it sparkle again.
Day five: Gave us a private recital and historical overview of the instrument in the context of Irish music.
I think everyone found something useful in this approach.
I generally don't find sessions useful at all for actually learning tunes - mostly you get some generic version, and I'd rather learn a specific version that recalls either the person or the context to mind.
Just my $0.02
And of course, there is no relationship between ability to perform, and ability to teach. Love of teaching is a separate calling.
M.

[talasiga]

Mr Migoya,
I have organised a lot of music workshops in my life.
Not conducted them. Organised them. I have also participated in them.
There is really not much one can learn in a workshop. BUt its not about quantity.
The idea is that if each person can take away with them
a minimum of just ONE new thing or approach
that can guide their future explorations and learning in the music.
I know a lot of people who have come to a workshop who were not
performance musicians. Some don't play an instrument. I get good feedback from people that participating in the workshop equipped them for a DEEPER appreciation of a musical tradition they love.
In my eyes, a workshop that just sharpens our listening ability
is a successful workshop.

[cocusflute]

The workshops that I've taken over the years, with Catherine McEvoy, Paul McGrattan, Billy McComisky, Brendan Mulvihill and Mike Rafferty were wonderful. That said, there is nothing magical about them. It isn't a pill you can take. A workshop is only as good as you can make it. What you take from it will equal the effort you put into it.
After every workshop I found a place where I could play and absorb what I learned. I didn't hang out with other students unless they too wanted to play slowly what was just demonstrated.
What I learned is that you have to listen very carefully, with great focus, to how the tunes are played by these people- you have to listen to the ornamentation and phrasing.
You can also get the same thing from a good session with people you feel comfortable with. And you can make your own workshop with a slow-downer program. It's harder than being in a class-room or private teaching situation but still much much better than learning from a book. There is just no substitute for ear-training and learning by ear.
As they say in the gym, everything works: Some things work better than others.

[gododdin]

I've not had the opportunity to attend a flute workshop yet (but hope to one day fairly soon!). However I've attended lots of fiddle workshops and they have ranged from brilliant to a waste of time. Some of the memorable ones were with Kevin Burke (twice!), Tommy Peoples and James Kelly. Many thanks to them for their brilliant help!

Anyway, my feeling about this is that a workshop should take you forward - should accelerate your learning in some way, and how that is likely to be depends upon what stage your playing is at at the time. After about five years of playing the fiddle I found that I reached a plateau and found it difficult to move on beyond it. A workshop helped me to break through the 'glass ceiling' (in part because whilst on the plateau I had time to identify the problem even if I couldn't solve it and was therefore able to ask the right questions at the workshop).

A good workshop also gives you loads to work on for weeks or months afterwards so that you continue to move forward/upwards.