So...not that I'm in any position to order a B set, but if I was I think at this point I'd be waffling between a Coyne and Harrington as my choice of model to copy. Unfortunately, I've never played either one of these beasts...but I've heard two different Harringtons, and a very accurate copy of a Coyne B chanter...
So, for the panel...what are some differences besides what I've heard in the chanters between Maurice Coyne and Denis Harrington's B sets? I'm looking for info on playability, balance, timbre that a player can hear (as opposed to what the listener hears), and anything else anyone can think of...I know Bill offers copies of both...I'd love to find out some of the technical differences too...other than the differing drone placements!
Coyne vs Harrington
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meemtp
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Coyne vs Harrington
Corin
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Kevin L. Rietmann
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Bill Haneman, you mean?I know Bill offers copies of both.
Don't think any Harrington B chanters are around to copy.So, for the panel...what are some differences besides what I've heard in the chanters between Maurice Coyne and Denis Harrington's B sets?
Mostly the difference in the sets is cosmetic. Harrington made fancier stuff. You'd have to talk to someone who's actually played both or made good copies to have an idea of what's under the hood.
Egan sets seem a bit different sonically - listen to Paddy Moloney on the early Chieftains LPs, or Pat McNulty's Autumn Apples, to hear Egan C. Or the C set on Willie Clancy's Pipering Vol. 2, which is the same Egan Paddy's playing. Ronan Browne plays Harrington B (with Peter Hunter chanter). Willie on Pipering Vol 2 and Robbie Hannon have Coyne B.
Egan's pipes looked different, of course. They all play well according to those who actually own sets.
Hope that helps.
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billh
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Guess I should chime in on this one... (it's an oddly phrased question though, are you asking from the point of view of a potential customer, or a potential maker?)
Apologies in advance for the detailed reply. If you hate minutiae then just scroll on by...
It sounds great in his hands but so much of that is the player - even though that chanter is a treasure, it is not totally unmodified from its original state.
It's true that there isn't any Harrington B chanter data floating around out there in public, at least AFAIK, and I am unaware of any other Harrington B chanter that has survived (there's one other that may be Harrington but the attribution is in doubt). I think I'd steer most people towards Coyne where B is concerned, from my experience Coyne B chanters are really lovely sounding, easy to play and well behaved.
Another Coyne B set is the "Busby" Coyne that Nollaig occasionally plays. Again, there are some questions about whether the chanter is in pristine condition. The Coyne B whose data was published by John Hughes in SRS (v1 or 2?) is indeed pristine and plays very well, and the measurements were very carefully made. Several people have used those figures successfully, including myself.
Pat Sky published measurements of his Kenna B chanter in SRS as well - nobody mentioned Kenna! That would be my second suggestion for B I think.
Egan doesn't seem to have made any sets in B, at least as far as I know; there are a number of "Bflat" Egans (actually rather sharp of modern Bflat, but well flatter than "B"). Most Egans are either in that pitch or in/around C, the only exception I know of is cormacc's set which is a bit sharper.
The trouble with Egan, at least at the moment, is that it seems no one has totally figured out how to reed them "optimally". Cormac and Benedict K. have both come tantalizingly close, enough to suggest that Egan is a path worth pursuing. Benedict at least once referred to this sound as "the clear Egan tone" and I think I know what he means - a bit less buzzy than Coyne/Kenna/etc., maybe a big louder/bigger, but still maintaining the richness of narrow bore. Egan bores are indeed bigger than the other guys', sort of a simple convex "bullet" or "sword" shape in profile, whereas the other bores are more "complex"/squiggly. I think Dan Dowd's set as featured on Drones and Chanters v1 is an Egan as well. (Some of the old cylinder recordings feature Egan, probably, but it can be hard to judge tone from those).
As Kevin says, though, where sound is concerned you just have to hear them for yourself, and as far as looks, you have to seek out examples. Both are really personal matters. (It's also true that great tone does not always correlate with easy to play/good behavior, though it often does...) There are loads of pictures on PDarcy's uilleannobsession.com site, in the Diary sections over several years. He has a google widget on the site, I think, to help you search for stuff...
It seems pretty definite to me, from my experiences and conversations, that even given the same data and 'model instrument', and working to comparable 'quality', the "copies" from different pipemakers will differ quite a bit in character; personal nuances in the reeding/voicing process seem to make a huge difference.
Best regards,
Bill
Apologies in advance for the detailed reply. If you hate minutiae then just scroll on by...
Well, actually there is one... Ronan is playing it nowadays (he hasn't used the Hunter B in a good few years). The more recent recordings of Ronan and Peadar (and Ronan solo, in B) use the Harrington B chanter.Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:Bill Haneman, you mean?I know Bill offers copies of both.
Don't think any Harrington B chanters are around to copy.So, for the panel...what are some differences besides what I've heard in the chanters between Maurice Coyne and Denis Harrington's B sets?
It sounds great in his hands but so much of that is the player - even though that chanter is a treasure, it is not totally unmodified from its original state.
It's true that there isn't any Harrington B chanter data floating around out there in public, at least AFAIK, and I am unaware of any other Harrington B chanter that has survived (there's one other that may be Harrington but the attribution is in doubt). I think I'd steer most people towards Coyne where B is concerned, from my experience Coyne B chanters are really lovely sounding, easy to play and well behaved.
Not sure I would agree with the first of those points; the bores and tonalities seem quite different. The fanciness in Harrington seems, IMO, mostly restricted to the elaborate bass regulator finial which is present on at least some Harrington sets, and in the 'double mounts' on drone and regulator end caps - otherwise both makers seem to have made fancy and not-so-fancy models. Most of the Harrington mounts seem to have been horse bone, except for the pieces whose size required them to be ivory.Mostly the difference in the sets is cosmetic. Harrington made fancier stuff.
The Coyne chanter that Willie is playing is, if it's the chanter I think it is, rather atypical (again, not quite in its original condition). Robbie's chanter is comparatively pristine, at least toneholes and bore - indeed it may be Coyne and it greatly resembles Coyne inside and out, but there is some possibility that it is late Kenna, as Robbie has always maintained it to be. (In some light one can see what appears to be a faint shamrock stamp).You'd have to talk to someone who's actually played both or made good copies to have an idea of what's under the hood.
Egan sets seem a bit different sonically - listen to Paddy Moloney on the early Chieftains LPs, or Pat McNulty's Autumn Apples, to hear Egan C. Or the C set on Willie Clancy's Pipering Vol. 2, which is the same Egan Paddy's playing. Ronan Browne plays Harrington B (with Peter Hunter chanter). Willie on Pipering Vol 2 and Robbie Hannon have Coyne B.
Another Coyne B set is the "Busby" Coyne that Nollaig occasionally plays. Again, there are some questions about whether the chanter is in pristine condition. The Coyne B whose data was published by John Hughes in SRS (v1 or 2?) is indeed pristine and plays very well, and the measurements were very carefully made. Several people have used those figures successfully, including myself.
Pat Sky published measurements of his Kenna B chanter in SRS as well - nobody mentioned Kenna! That would be my second suggestion for B I think.
Egan doesn't seem to have made any sets in B, at least as far as I know; there are a number of "Bflat" Egans (actually rather sharp of modern Bflat, but well flatter than "B"). Most Egans are either in that pitch or in/around C, the only exception I know of is cormacc's set which is a bit sharper.
The trouble with Egan, at least at the moment, is that it seems no one has totally figured out how to reed them "optimally". Cormac and Benedict K. have both come tantalizingly close, enough to suggest that Egan is a path worth pursuing. Benedict at least once referred to this sound as "the clear Egan tone" and I think I know what he means - a bit less buzzy than Coyne/Kenna/etc., maybe a big louder/bigger, but still maintaining the richness of narrow bore. Egan bores are indeed bigger than the other guys', sort of a simple convex "bullet" or "sword" shape in profile, whereas the other bores are more "complex"/squiggly. I think Dan Dowd's set as featured on Drones and Chanters v1 is an Egan as well. (Some of the old cylinder recordings feature Egan, probably, but it can be hard to judge tone from those).
As Kevin says, though, where sound is concerned you just have to hear them for yourself, and as far as looks, you have to seek out examples. Both are really personal matters. (It's also true that great tone does not always correlate with easy to play/good behavior, though it often does...) There are loads of pictures on PDarcy's uilleannobsession.com site, in the Diary sections over several years. He has a google widget on the site, I think, to help you search for stuff...
It seems pretty definite to me, from my experiences and conversations, that even given the same data and 'model instrument', and working to comparable 'quality', the "copies" from different pipemakers will differ quite a bit in character; personal nuances in the reeding/voicing process seem to make a huge difference.
Best regards,
Bill
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meemtp
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Thanks Bill!
Potential customer...when I ever get to save money!
It is an oddly phrased question I suppose. It stems from wanting a B set derived from the old makers rather than a re-scaled concert set. Harrington and Coyne are the old makers that I've seen/heard the most of.
I KNEW that was the Harrington RB was playing! I'd heard the stuff he did with the Hunter chanter, then recently got the stuff where he's playing the Harrington...I knew I could hear the difference. It sounds "older"...if that makes any sense...
It sounds as if something after Coyne might suit me best...or maybe Kenna...
Potential customer...when I ever get to save money!
It is an oddly phrased question I suppose. It stems from wanting a B set derived from the old makers rather than a re-scaled concert set. Harrington and Coyne are the old makers that I've seen/heard the most of.
I KNEW that was the Harrington RB was playing! I'd heard the stuff he did with the Hunter chanter, then recently got the stuff where he's playing the Harrington...I knew I could hear the difference. It sounds "older"...if that makes any sense...
It sounds as if something after Coyne might suit me best...or maybe Kenna...
Corin
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meemtp
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Not re-scaled in the literal sense, but I've seen some ridiculously large B sets...they work fine, but it seems almost as if they're flat/narrower bore versions of the maker's concert pitch sets...in proportion and sound. I don't want to name names, and the sets are plenty nice, they're just not what I'm looking for...I think someone else described this better than I can in an older thread.
Corin
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Uilliam
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Do ye mean like this Egan set?meemtp wrote:Not re-scaled in the literal sense, but I've seen some ridiculously large B sets...they work fine, but it seems almost as if they're flat/narrower bore versions of the maker's concert pitch sets...in proportion and sound. I don't want to name names, and the sets are plenty nice, they're just not what I'm looking for...I think someone else described this better than I can in an older thread.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
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meemtp
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Ulliam: Nope, not what I meant.
TomC: I have much less experience at these pipes than others, so I may not be able to describe as well, but Ronan Browne's Harrington to me sounds husky and muscular where a Coyne sounds a bit more, well...more "honey" in the tone. The Harrington "rumbles" and the Coyne sparkles...I don't know...it's like trying to describe how wine tastes to someone that's never had it before! Easier said than done...
Oh, and then there's the Kenna "creaminess"
TomC: I have much less experience at these pipes than others, so I may not be able to describe as well, but Ronan Browne's Harrington to me sounds husky and muscular where a Coyne sounds a bit more, well...more "honey" in the tone. The Harrington "rumbles" and the Coyne sparkles...I don't know...it's like trying to describe how wine tastes to someone that's never had it before! Easier said than done...
Oh, and then there's the Kenna "creaminess"
Corin
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Kevin L. Rietmann
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