sbhikes wrote:I'm so glad my sessions aren't as full of grumpiness as postings like this topic. I totally understand the sentiment and wouldn't want to hear people playing badly either. But for some reason, despite being as bad as can be and committing some of the sins listed above, people come to me each session and say I shouldn't sit out so much, that I should just jump in and do the best I can, that I should pull my chair in closer etc. And yet I continue to cringe in the corner playing as quietly as I dare, when I dare to play at all.
I think there are sessions, and then there are Sessions, and of course there are "sessions"...
I do understand the preference for the more expert players to be allowed to do what they do best, and don't for a moment argue that they shouldn't, but that type of Session is not even available in my area, let alone common.
I prefer the ones that are more open and helpful, myself, as they help me learn and are great fun for all involved, most of the time. As we grow, the folk who are most serious about learning more in the tradition are meeting in a seperate session to pursue that, and it is an invitation only one. However, even with that, we are not putting ourselves above others, just focusing on a particular path that most of the others are not ready for or interested in yet. If and when they make that choice or reach that ability, I dare say they will be invited to join. But for the open session, I am much more in favor of inclusion than exclusion. If and when any of us reach 'expert' status (boy that's a can of worms), then ... well... then.
anniemcu
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sbhikes wrote:I'm so glad my sessions aren't as full of grumpiness as postings like this topic. I totally understand the sentiment and wouldn't want to hear people playing badly either. But for some reason, despite being as bad as can be and committing some of the sins listed above, people come to me each session and say I shouldn't sit out so much, that I should just jump in and do the best I can, that I should pull my chair in closer etc. And yet I continue to cringe in the corner playing as quietly as I dare, when I dare to play at all.
I was thinking the same thing. I've never been to a session and threads like this don't exactly encourage me to find one. I can sympathize with the point of the original poster, but the hostility takes all the fun from those not in advanced clique.
Right on, lads. Glad you've developed a preference for the type of sessions you prefer. Everyone likes something different, after all, and that's why there are many variations on the basic theme. What doesn't work is to expect them all to conform to one standard, whether that be of the high-aptitude or the hand-holding sort.
For those of us who are trying to play at a high level, the points that Ro3b makes are relevant. I have some idea of the sort of player that he plays with, and the music is no doubt at a very high level at his sessions. That's not the one to turn up at in order to work the kinks out of one's accompaniment style. It's just not fair to the lads who are trying to get off the ground, who have put in the hours across many years reaching for the lofty, worthy goal of being able not just to operate an instrument, but to play real music on one in the company of like-minded peers.
Beginners shouldn't be scorned for their inexperience. Likewise, advanced players shouldn't be scorned for having achieved something with their playing, or for having high standards. As nice as it is to be egalitarian through most of life, at some stage some consideration must be given to those who have put in the time and progressed to a higher level, who have experience and maturity (in their craft if not their comportment). It's nice to be nice, as they say in Ireland, and if a "nice" session is what makes you happy, then there are plenty to choose from, or you can start your own. Don't pass judgment on others for trying to uphold a certain standard. There are players out there who have earned the right, through hard work and achievement, to be particular about their session.
I'd add to Rob S.'s spot-on comments that there are good and bad ways to approach playing in a session. And you can be a beginner and still strive for that high standard. Our session is pretty advanced, but if a serious beginner or intermediate player turns up, someone with a desire to learn and who's clearly "on the bus," they'll certainly be welcomed and encouraged. I tell such people to bring a recording device, learn our tunes, and for gods' sake keep on coming.
The kind of players I'm bemoaning in this thread, though, are those who come to the session with a cup already full, who don't have any understanding of the music and think they can just jump in and whang along regardless -- because it's a jam session, right? -- who don't take themselves or the music seriously enough to admit the need for improvement. It's hard to overstate the destructive effect two or three such people can have on a session.
Please don't let my surliness put you off playing in sessions. Get out there and play. Just be considerate of the people you're playing with, and know the music you play, and learn the music you don't know.
Right again, Rob. As a music teacher myself, I'm in the business of encouraging beginners, hopefully pointing them in the right direction regarding how to approach sessions in the process. After all, every one of us starts from square one; I suppose the eternal question is, how to best integrate the beginners and the more experienced in a session environment? Is it possible to keep everyone happy at once?
Less-advanced players frequently complain about surliness or grumpiness among the more experienced players at the session, usually without taking the time to examine their own behavior to see if there's anything they might have done to engender such a reaction, and could perhaps improve upon in future to gain more acceptance. Advanced players frequently start out on the defensive, having already parried one too many misguided thrusts into the circle. Patience worn thin, they shoot first, and let God sort 'em out later. Anytime people's egos and self-image are in play, there will be these sorts of conflicts. Whatever are we to do?
It's a good general topic for discussion, but not exactly the topic of this particular thread. I would say that accompanists are a special case, and the whens, wheres, and hows of the use of accompaniment in trad will be debated forever. The particular case of the too-intrepid inexperienced backer, if I may be so bold, was what Ro3b was addressing in his initial rant - the question lies right at the crossroads of sessions etiquette and accompanists' special duties.
Special duties? As I said in an earlier post, the accompanist has great power over what happens in the session. A good accompanist can lift a session in such a mighty way. Hardly anything to me is more thrilling than hearing a guitar, bouzouki, or bodhran kick in at the right moment and send the whole thing into overdrive. By the same token, nothing is more of a drag than a stumbling, fumbling chancer, missing the beat and the point while brows all around him are furrowing. It's horribly distracting to have someone waffling away on a guitar, questing for the key or worse, playing with great self-assurance in the wrong one, or playing just behind or ahead of the other musicians' feet. The rhythm is such an important component of the playing of this dance music of ours; an instrument that is predominantly of a rhythmic character really does have above-average power to make or break the session, and with great power comes great responsibility.
America is the land of the guitar. 100 years ago, everyone would gather around the piano; today, it's the guitar. The best ones are made here (debatable, I know, but I'm willing...), and there's one in practically every closet. Net result? A nearly endless supply of folks with a guitar and a few chords, some of whom are going to turn up at Irish sessions and give it a go. Hell, I'm one of them, though I started learning tunes on the mandolin before it ever occurred to me to bring the guitar to the session. And yes, in the interest of full disclosure, I most certainly wrecked a few sessions in the early days. What I really wish is that someone had laid it all out for me, like Ro3b did in his initial post. So often, in the complex interaction of people's egos and ideas at a session, what's lacking is a bit of clarity, a clear statement of what's expected rather than a cold shoulder or harsh words. Ro3b is doing folks a favor, in my opinion, laying it out straight like he did.
It's so much easier now, with the internet, to find information about sessions, etiquette, tunes, and everything else related to what we're up to. Taking all of that into consideration, it's getting harder and harder to justify the sort of willful ignorance that leads to boorish behavior at the session.
I don't think anyone would argue over the subject of the thread but my comment is about the delivery. You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Etiquette goes both ways. At least inwardly, I thought the initial post to mean, "How dare a n00b attempt to play with the A Team?". Of course, that's me overstating the point but I couldn't help but think that when I first read this thread. I'll agree that attempting to play along to a song one doesn't know or know well is rude. Ro3b properly identified the thread as a rant which by the nature of rants is hostile. Just me thinking outloud here.
Last edited by Steamwalker on Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I understood the original post that started this whole thing off as not being "How dare a n00b attempt to play with the A Team?".
But subsequent posts seemed to start to lean that way, or at least, sensitive Noobs like myself may start to feel like the rest of the posts are trying to tell them that they are an imposition on a good session. Thankfully not all open sessions are that way. And thankfully that's not what you all are saying.
Now, time to tell myself again it's ok next session to play a few bum notes quietly in the corner...
Not only did I get a few chuckles out of this thread, but I actually learned a fair bit. I am a guitar player, I have a recently kindled interest in Irish music, and I have a session in my neighbourhood that I haven't been too yet but has peaked my interest.
Having read this thread, I'm going to spend a bit of time working my craft in private before taking the guitar with me to the session, and spend my time at the session enjoying the beer/vibe/music/scene and taking notes of what tunes get played, etc. Maybe I'll buy an approachable player a pint and ask what tunes come up most often, and what he/she wants to hear from accompaniment, etc..
I have over 20 years of experience playing all manner of classical, jazz & rock guitar, which might have made me fool-hardy enough to take my guitar to my first session with a "let's jam" attitude. Now I know I've got to take the time to develop a proper respect for the music if I want anyone to develop a proper respect for me. With any luck things will go well & I'll be sitting in within the next few weeks.
Chatterton ... Given that your session guitar challenges are likely to be more stylistic than technical, here's a question that may help you: Which well-known Irish backup guitarist do you want to sound like? Arty McGlynn, John Doyle, Paul Brady, Micheal Ó Domhnaill, Dennis Cahill, Donogh Hennessy, etc.?
If you can't answer that question, at least tentatively, and explain why, then you're probably not quite ready to jump in. If you can, you've probably listened widely enough to understand the differences and what it is about their technique and approach to modal harmonies, rhythm and texture that makes their playing appropriate and effective in an Irish context. And, hopefully, reproduce some of those qualities to the delight of your session colleagues.
Of course, I'm not suggesting slavish imitation. Ultimately you want to sound like ... you. But modeling your first steps after a favored and respected player is not a bad way to start on any instrument.
And I'd wager that many of the guitarists targeted by Ro3b and others here would fail this question test.
MTGuru wrote:Given that your session guitar challenges are likely to be more stylistic than technical, here's a question that may help you: Which well-known Irish backup guitarist do you want to sound like? Arty McGlynn, John Doyle, Paul Brady, Micheal Ó Domhnaill, Dennis Cahill, Donogh Hennessy, etc.?
If you can't answer that question, at least tentatively, and explain why, then you're probably not quite ready to jump in.
Don't worry, I know. I have a lot of listening to do. I'll have an informed answer for you on that someday.
Thanks for bearing with me as long as you have. I'm a very curious soul, but my well of stupid newbie questions is almost all dried up.
Wormdiet wrote:
For some reason whistlers seem to be most prone to this. Thank god it isn't typical for box players.
I never thought about that. My experiences are the same: I've heard this kind of random note playing from flutes and fiddles, but never box players.
As a concertina player, I think I can explain that: it's easy to get self-conscious about how you sound because the box isn't next to your head, and the sound comes out the sides---so you can't hear your own playing unless it's loud enough that everyone else can hear it too. You often see concertina players hunched down, with their head next to one end of the box, trying to hear themselves to make sure they really got the B part right.
So it's a bit like playing the flute while severely hard of hearing. I think this makes players a bit risk-averse.
Steamwalker wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. I've never been to a session and threads like this don't exactly encourage me to find one. I can sympathize with the point of the original poster, but the hostility takes all the fun from those not in advanced clique.
Hold on now: nobody is being hostile to beginners here.
The hostility is to people who are rude and disruptive, albeit unintentionally so. People who are insensitive to some basic guidelines of conduct.
If someone shows up to a session and plays random notes because he doesn't know any tunes, he's going to raise the ire of everyone else---and not because he is a beginner.
Around here beginners are always welcomed and encouraged, nay begged to play. But if some newcomer tries to pound a bodhran during a lament (it happens,) people aren't going to be happy. Again, that's not because the dude is a beginner. In fact, these little episodes often involve people who aren't beginners at all. You'll have someone who has been playing for years, is highly skilled and just now interested in trying out some Irish stuff. But for some reason they engage in some disruptive behavior when they should know better.
Once at the old session we had some dude show up who obviously sang professionally, with that loudness that comes from playing and singing pop music in noisy bars. During tunes he'd bang pretty hard on his guitar, or pull out a harmonica and vamp louder than everyone combined. He launched into long ballads at every opportunity, during any lull, sometimes even interrupting sets that he apparently didn't hear.
The dude was obviously a skilled musician, but (a) he was totally oblivious to any group etiquette (b) he was hella loud and (c) he acted like the everyone else was his personal backup combo. I never saw him after that, and I suspect someone took him aside to politely tell him he was being a grade-A gold-plated jackass.
I bet no one else has had THIS guy show up at their session........ ( behind the fiddler). Glad someone got evidence, how do you explain this to anyone????
