The physical aspects of different flutes

[Tjones]

There has been a lot of discussion about the type of materials used to make the flute, ie, wood vs. delrin, blackwood vs. boxwood, etc., but very little mentioned about the differences in the physical aspects of different flutes; the overall diameter, length and balance of one flute vs. another, and how that might relate to the sound they produced, and their playablity, and how it might effect one’s playing(ie. fatigue).

I have a Seery in delrin and I was surprised when I receive my delrin flute from Jon C.. It was 35mm shorter in overall length and weighted over an ounce less. If I have any issuses with my hands this would be important.

For example I have two antique flutes (I haven’t gotten them in playing condition yet). One flute that measures 30 mms outside diameter across the emboursure, 26.5 mm at L1, the other measures 27mms and 24.5 mm at L1.

Materials being the same, is there any trade off in sound quality in having a lighter, narrower flute vs a heavier flute? Does having thicker walls improve the sound? Does It have anything to do with hole size and volume? Is balance more important than weight?

These questions might seem silly, but I feel they are important, and would like to see a discussion on some of these issues.

Tom

[Wormdiet]

I dunno about sonic differences due to weight, but the two flutes I have owned could not be more different ergonomically.

I started with the PVC M & E "Rudall" model, then switched to a keyed Murray last year. The M & E was both heavier overall and much more top-heavy. In contrast, the Murray is the best-balanced flute I have played for any length of time. It is (like all Murrays) very thin walled, and slender. Moreover, mine has only a partially lined headjoint. I find it extremely comfortable to play. I used to get a lot of wrist soreness and pain when playing the MERR extensively - this just does not happen with the Murray. Part of that could be due to me getting used to playing the flute (any flute), but I think a lot of it also stems from the difference between the flutes I've played.

The Murray also sounds different - easier to "bark" and jump octaves, and there is more reedy/trebleness available when desired. But I have no clue whether the wall thickness or weight is a contributing factor. Also, I still sound overwhelmingly the same (like me) in recordings no matter what the flute is.

Just a few days ago, a fiddler friend (who runs a violin shop) told an interesting story. He often gets requests for violin bows in specific weights - down to the fraction of the ounce. With customers like this, he will give them a "mystery" bow, very well made, and ask for customer's feedback. When they tell him it's a great, wonderful bow, he then reveals that it's actually a cello bow, but an extremely well-balanced one. The point being that balance is a lot more important than simple mass. Not perhaps relevant directly to flute playing, but interesting nonetheless.

[Nelson]

Hi Tom, I am writing a book on flute physics. The beginning of which is on http://www.flutephysics.com. When I write a technical book I put it on the net as I am writing so I can get feedback from others in the field. The part I have up on the net now is the basics that require some knowledge of trigonometry. The later parts of the book will be explainations without depth in math. I have connected with an engineer in Spain who will be turning the equations into design parameters with computer programs. To try a quick answer to some of your questions, a fraction of a millimeter in hole position, chimney height (wall thickness), diameter, taper, bore smoothness, any of these will chnage the overtone characteristics, and hance the sound quality. Also, any difference in embachure geometry makes all the difference in the world. And of course, player idiosyncrasie are paramont. The calculated and measured consequences of different materials are so minimal that they are way down in the noise compaired to the consequences of slight differences in geomentry and player aspects. This assumes solid masterial such as metal, heavy wood, plastic. An exception to this is some woods, such as boxwood, which change their surface smoothness from wetness after a few minutes of playings. Surfice smoothness effects are just too complicated the calculate. For example, the inhancment of the "Q" of the Doug Tipple's flute with a rough inside surface can not be explained simply.
Hope this and the website help.

Nelson

[Denny]

The point being that balance is a lot more important than simple mass. Not perhaps relevant directly to flute playing, but interesting nonetheless.

quite relevant...good balance will make the heavier flute seem lighter than an ill balanced lighter one.

[Jon C.]

Hi Tom, I am writing a book on flute physics. The beginning of which is on http://www.flutephysics.com. When I write a technical book I put it on the net as I am writing so I can get feedback from others in the field. The part I have up on the net now is the basics that require some knowledge of trigonometry. The later parts of the book will be explainations without depth in math. I have connected with an engineer in Spain who will be turning the equations into design parameters with computer programs. To try a quick answer to some of your questions, a fraction of a millimeter in hole position, chimney height (wall thickness), diameter, taper, bore smoothness, any of these will chnage the overtone characteristics, and hance the sound quality. Also, any difference in embachure geometry makes all the difference in the world. And of course, player idiosyncrasie are paramont. The calculated and measured consequences of different materials are so minimal that they are way down in the noise compaired to the consequences of slight differences in geomentry and player aspects. This assumes solid masterial such as metal, heavy wood, plastic. An exception to this is some woods, such as boxwood, which change their surface smoothness from wetness after a few minutes of playings. Surfice smoothness effects are just too complicated the calculate. For example, the inhancment of the "Q" of the Doug Tipple's flute with a rough inside surface can not be explained simply.
Hope this and the website help.

Nelson

Spoken like a true "rocket scientist" which he is!
The depth of the tone holes has to be taken into the tuning of the flute. There is also the factor of undercutting the tone holes. The thickness of the flute anywhere that doesn't have a hole is in-material, thus we see the Clinton flute for India, where the tone hole depth was made by raising a lip around the tone hole. Of course if the material is porous like balsa wood or Pine, then there would be leakage through the wall causing loss.
The balance of the Head versus body, I think is more important for playing fatigue. I have the original Meyers flute that is quite heavy with all the keys, but it is balanced with the ivory head, and quite comfy. When you play a flute with a short foot, it becomes obvious that even lighter, it is harder on the wrist.

[crookedtune]

I am writing a book on flute physics. The beginning of which is on http://www.flutephysics.com.
Nelson

Ah! I had a look. Intuitively, that's pretty much how I thought flutes worked. Thanks for the confirmation!

[Coffee]

Oh no! We're actually bringing scientific method, objective reasoning, and logic into this? What happened to dogmatic, heated, and opinionated bickering about buttery tones vs. darker tones and my material is better than yours?

[talasiga]

........
Materials being the same, is there any trade off in sound quality in having a lighter, narrower flute vs a heavier flute? Does having thicker walls improve the sound? Does It have anything to do with hole size and volume? Is balance more important than weight?

These questions might seem silly, but I feel they are important, and would like to see a discussion on some of these issues.

I think what the player brings to the instrument is the most important factor. Anything that helps the player will make for a "BETTER FLUTE".
For instance bamboo is a poor man's material in many respects but, in big flutes (D key and larger), it catches up with others because its lightness
encourages greater articulation kinesthetics.

I prefer lightness in large flutes and wooden weight in high whistles.
Having said that I will not ever part with my Seery blackwood.
If you ever see me trying to sell it in this forum, kindly take it as a joke.

[I.D.10-t]

The beginning of which is on http://www.flutephysics.com.

Okay, so what changes the responsiveness, or the speed at which notes can be changed from one wave to another (or did I miss that part)?

PS. My quantum physics class final looks easy compared to that.

[Nelson]

Just for you, I.D.10-T, I have not gotten into the details of changing notes fast, but in general, it is the "Q" of the flute. The Q is the ratio of the energy stored in the flute divided by the energy lost per cycle (dimensionless). It is also the "ring time" of a note--the time it takes the note to die out to 1/e of its value. Q is ring time times frequency. The Q is low for flutes, about 1 millisec. The Q of a "gong" is one second. So a whistle that has less energy stored will change notes fast, and "fill" fast. A Bb flute fills with more energy and cannot switch notes fast.

Nelson

[Cathy Wilde]

Oh no! We're actually bringing scientific method, objective reasoning, and logic into this? What happened to dogmatic, heated, and opinionated bickering about buttery tones vs. darker tones and my material is better than yours?

Don't give up hope. The thread is young.

Goooo, Dr. Nelson!

[ImNotIrish]

Nelson,

Just visited your flute physics page. Dude, you make my head swim....


Arbo

[Jack Bradshaw]

What Nelson said......

[greenspiderweb]

Nelson,

Just visited your flute physics page. Dude, you make my head swim....


Arbo

Have you ever seen "The Excorcist"? Spin is more like it for me! What a hurtin'!

[Cork]

Oh no! We're actually bringing scientific method, objective reasoning, and logic into this? What happened to dogmatic, heated, and opinionated bickering about buttery tones vs. darker tones and my material is better than yours?

Thank you, Cofaidh. I couldn't have said it any better myself. I like the part about opinionated bickering et al.

However, if somebody has a real interest in just how flutes work, then let them have at it. After all, apparently musicians as a lot do come from a variety of backgrounds.

Personally, music has long been my individual escape from the quantitative world, and thank goodness for that!