WTT #8 - Tuning slides

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:40 pm

Whistle Tech Talk
Whistlemaker and player question - for a high-D or C whistle, how much tuning slide do you prefer to make or have available? I've noticed that if I make the slide long enough to get a whole tone as the range, there is a place toward either end where the bell note is right, but things get progressively more and more out of tune with each other. I know why it happens, but what I want to know is, how far do _you_ think the tuning should go, either side of nominal?

One method has it that you cut the whistle a bit sharp when the slide's all the way in, but just how sharp do you want it to be? Players? Makers?

Another thing with slides has to do with holding in place. Although it's possible to machine to such close tolerances as to make a tight friction fit, I don't like that idea. A tiny dent, or bit of corrosion would screw you up totally. What I'm doing is machining to a snug, but not tight, fit, and installing a threaded bead with silver solder, that accepts a small knurled screw to lock the slide in place. Any extra slack can be taken up by cork grease or petroleum jelly. If it were your whistle, or if you were making it, where would you want the locking screw to be? Top? Side? Bottom? Understand that it will be away from your hands, and won't interfere with playing.

Who's got the answers, this time?
Thanks, Happy Hallowe'en!

Bill Whedon

Caoimhin · Post by **Caoimhin** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:12 am

Haven't tried any tuneable whistles, but I suppose I could talk a bit...

Maybe a tuning slide that can be sorta unscrewed, ok, maybe not that. Something like you turn the thing clockwise or anticlock (whichever...), it loosens, then adjust, then turn it back so it's tight.
But since metal expands or contracts, this could screw up.

Ridseard · Post by **Ridseard** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:30 am

A quarter tone in each direction should be enough. (Assuming a warmed whistle.) If the fiddles want to be off more than that, then %^$!*&!

I like the Burke tuning slide, with the O-ring.

Caoimhin · Post by **Caoimhin** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:02 am

How about a coin slot?

Then we can tune according to how many cents flat/sharp we want it to be

20 cents? 2 cents? Please, coins only!

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:43 am

Mine are made from telescoping brass tubing. There is about 1.25" exposed tubing on the male half, which extends from the body tube ( unlike a Rose which is on the head). I just use a friction fit which seems to work just fine. I tune them sharp, but not very much-- everyone here is asleep right now, or I'd check exactly how much!
Personally, I don't think I'd like diddling with a setscrew very much unless I planned on keeping my whistle assembled most of the time and only adjusting it as needed. For a wooden whistle, this is not advisable as it is easier to dry the bore after playing if the whistle is disassembled.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:45 am

I like the standard 1/8-1/4" out to play in tune, with a longer slide like Paul's. I prefer the friction-fit slides because of the danger of damaging the O-ring that Burkes and Susatos have (I've had to replace O-rings on both a Susato and a Burke). OTOH, friction fits can be pretty dicey. My Abell is WAY too tight (plus the whole slide is only about 1/4" long), but I've had some whistles that had a lot of play in the slides.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:49 am

Does this bring us back to hemp wrapped tenons that can easily be adjusted when the wood shrinks/swells?

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:23 am

I understand that tuning slides are theoretically useful, but how often do people actually use them in practice? I have a Burke, and I adjusted it once when I got it and haven't adjusted it since. Also, as has been mentioned, while one can tune one note of the scale, the rest of the scale goes progressively more out as one deviates from A-440, which means that while you can tune your A (or whatever) to match the fiddle next to you, the rest of your notes are going to be out of tune.
In short, are tuning slides really useful?
Micah

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:52 am

Micah, according to a couple of whistlers who've admired the sound of my whistles, the major obstacle to purchasing one has been the lack of a tuning slide. I've personally never had a problem using an on-the-money nontunable in a group setting, (except with the recor***s, but, well, they have enough problems with other recor***s)

But people want the choice, so here I go! Thanks for the feedback!
Cheers,

Bill Whedon

dkehoe · Post by **dkehoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:54 am

Isn't there more variation in tuning brought on by the air velocity than by the tuning slide in most cases? This is an honest question - I don't know. If so, then isn't a tuning slide somewhat superfluous? Actual measurements would be helpful.

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:36 am

On 2002-10-31 07:49, Tony wrote:
Does this bring us back to hemp wrapped tenons that can easily be adjusted when the wood shrinks/swells?

Tony, there are other, much better uses for that particular vegetation...

serpent

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:50 am

On 2002-10-31 10:54, dkehoe wrote:
Isn't there more variation in tuning brought on by the air velocity than by the tuning slide in most cases? This is an honest question - I don't know. If so, then isn't a tuning slide somewhat superfluous? Actual measurements would be helpful.

Well, here I go starting s**t again that'll probably get me on somebody's blacklist (boo, hoo...), but honestly, I perceive that most people who insist on tuning slides wind up locking them in position, anyhow, once their whistle is where they want it - which, given that many outfits tune electronically, nowadays, is right on key. Which is where most whistle makers try for their instruments to be, anyway.

Any whistler who allows the strings to be the tuning standard in a group (and that includes hammered dulcimers, some of whom get real pissy if you suggest they're off and should tune to a woodwind), is, IMNAAHO, really in need of some assertiveness training.

Go to any decent music store and ask them to show you a half-dozen of their crystal-controlled tuners all singing A440 at once. See if you can hear any difference beyond the intonation from the different speakers. I'll bet money you can't. Now, if your whistle is tuned properly to one of those, and your group's strings are, as well, then why would you need a tunable whistle, except to play with somebody who didn't buy enough D Gens or Clarkes or whatever, to have a good one on hand? (Or a reco***r, which is a different kettle of fish, altogether! )

Anyhow, that's my 2p on the subject. I may have to make 'em, but I don't have to believe there's a Good Reason for 'em!

Cheers,
Liam

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:49 pm

Player perspective, here. I have made about a half dozen whistles, out of copper pipe and brass tubing. I am not really a maker, though I hope to learn enough of how to do it that I could be if I wanted...

Anyway, I don't especially like tuning slides. I prefer the simplicity of a plain, non-tuneable whistle. I like Clarke classic whistles, Dixon non-tuneables, and so on.

That said, I do like to know that my whistle is in tune with itself and with a fixed standard. I don't want to dink around with the thing to get it in tune, especially a handmade. I reckon if the maker can't get it right, there's more of a problem than a tuning slide will fix.

However, several makers feel that a tuning slide is important, even integral to the design. I want one of Erik Tullberg's lovely silver whistles and his are certainly tuneable. I also want a Burke. Again... For whatever reason, these folks put the tuning slide into their designs. I won't argue with the maker. If I want a different whistle, I can go to a different maker, right?

I suspect that most folks who want a tuning slide prefer the perception of adaptability that it gives them. I am not currently one of them.

My personal philosophy comes from the things I maker. I make several things, ranging from glass beads to glass pens to knives. At one time, I was willing to do custom work (done to a customer's design, not mine), but no more. I can't put the heart and love into someone else's vision. I think that any handmade item is like that. For that reason, if I order a handmade whistle, I will tell the maker that I like a certain amount of blow, but otherwise to make it like he was making it for himself. I think I will get a better instrument that way.

If you don't want to make a tuning slide, DON'T. Tell any potential customers that you feel that the negative effects outweigh the theoretical advantage of tuneability. And have a list of negative effects to tell them about.

If I had a tuneable whistle with a set-screw, it would drive me nuts. I prefer the idea of a tight fitting joint that friction-fits in place. For a copper pipe whistle, you can use a standard coupler. It fits pretty close. Wax the part of the whistle that will move in it. Solder the other end of the whistle to the coupler. Voila! Tuning slide. I still don't want one, though.

-Patrick

johnz · Post by **johnz** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:36 pm

I don't have any whistles with a tuning slide, and don't intend on getting any.I think that a set screw is an inelegent (is that a word?) way of attaining a good fit. I really like the idea of a hemp joint, It's easily user adjustable and can be changed to accomadate future wear or metal deformation.Anyway that's my idea, from a non-tunable whistle player.
Take care, Johnz
P.S. For the ultimate in tunability, bore all of the holes large and add tape to tune them.You could tune to almost anything then.

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:30 pm

On 2002-10-31 10:23, Micah wrote:
In short, are tuning slides really useful?
Micah

When you're playing alone, there's no reason to need a tuning slide. For years, I never worried about having a tuning slide. These days, I couldn't get along without one.

In session, we have an accordian player that's a few cents sharp. It's not like he can just tune the thing while we're sitting there. You'd be lucky to get a non-tunable that was out of tune exactly in the same range. If you're sitting next to another whistler, and you're both a little off from each other, its really noticeable too...and nothing you can do about it if you're non-tunable. We have a lady that plays a non-tunable Susato, and she's out of tune with everyone (because we're all a little sharp), and it's extremely noticeable. I guess I could use some assertiveness and insist that the accordian player guy go out and get new reeds..that'd be the logical thing after all. :roll:

When my band has gigs, I prefer to be A440. So, I retune for gigs, and know that I'm going to be in tune with my guitar player (who likewise tunes to A440). Both singers are used to singing right on key, so it works out. But I suppose I could just put my foot down and make 'em accomodate <b>me</b>

So, I personally end up tuning my instrument all the time. Other folks may not need to so much, but chances are that once you start playing with others regularly, you're gonna want the tuning slide.