Cuts cuts cuts and my brain

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Aanvil
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Post by Aanvil »

sbhikes wrote:
Oh well, I guess it's just me that this method seems so complicated. Maybe I'll get it someday.

Its not really that "overly" complicated.

But this isn't a simple thing you are trying to learn you know.

You got years ahead of you so take it easy mate.

I dunno, his book seems rather well thought out to me.

But then again, I already read music and that doesw help. In fact I think he says so in the book.

A basic observation of watching others play... other than Grey's idea of generally cutting the note just above on rolls, instead of say, always cutting with T1 whatever, the general concepts he has of making all those twiddly bits seems pretty universal to me.

You can't fudge a solid tap/strike or a cut.

Its all a matter of how much practice you put in.

Do the lessons until you can replicate what you hear on the disks.

I'm sure others may come in here and say "Oh that Grey... yadda yadda"

Don't give up on Grey's book.

I keep comming back to it and finding things I missed or misunderstood the times around (its quite dog eared now)

There is tons of good stuff in there.

Oh, my advice... and it will make some of the purests scream... learn to read music.

It won't kill you or ruin your ability to play ITM.

You'll have noticed Gray used all of this new notation for ornaments. It comes in handy when you eventually transcribe something by ear.
Aanvil

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cadancer
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Post by cadancer »

Get a grip, Diane!!! You are doing great!

There are lots-o-aspects of playing music. If you get frustrated with one, work on something else for a while... tunes, memorization, rhythm, tone, tone,tone.. etc.

You just got your flute, I doubt if anyone on this site leaned cuts (etc.) from scratch in a month. geez... :)

Keep in mind that the better the tone, the crisper the ornaments will be, so I believe that tone is also a vital part of ornamentation.

I have Grey's book, but have not really gotten into it yet. What I read on his web site made sense to me. Especially about how the ornament is often an attack at the beginning of the note and not really a separate note.

Having said that, I also have June McCormack's book/CD "Fliuit". She has ornament exercises in the beginning of the book which I have found helpful. One thing I did do was take the CD's 15 (very short) oramentation tracks and modify their presentation. I took a program called Audacity and spliced them all together (also 3 times through each) and now have a CD with about 12 minutes of slow-ish ornament practice.

Take care,

John
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cadancer
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Post by cadancer »

Oh... and Diane, just for the record...

My Irish flute playing sucks. I am a beginner, but am enjoying the process.

I do have fairly extensive experience with Bulgarian Kaval (endblown shepherd's flute). The Bulgarian ornaments are more complicated, but many of the basics things (cuts, taps, slides) are present in both.

:)

...john
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gododdin
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Post by gododdin »

I've got Grey's Book, and like you I'm pretty much a beginner on flute (6 months) though not to the music. The explanation of cuts in Grey's book (and don't even talk to me about rolls!) sounds complicated but that's because Grey is trying to 'dot every i and cross every t'. If you read it carefully and try out what he says you'll find that it actually isn't that complicated really.

Imagine if you were trying to explain all the steps required to make a simple cup of coffee, from filling the kettle, to getting the mug, to adding the cream etc. It would take some doing and would look way complicated to someone who'd never done it before. But once you've made coffee a few times you don't have to think about it any more and it's easy (not that I'm suggesting that cuts are quite that easy!).

I think Grey's book is telling you how to make coffee in great detail :D But get beyond the mechanics and the detailed examples and it ain't so hard. I made a one page summary for my notebook.
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Cass
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Post by Cass »

Hi...I've just ordered Grey's book, and I'm preparing myself for a very long, in depth, "go-over-it-49-times-before-you-understand-it", read!! :boggle:
I'm looking forward to it, in a perverse kind of way! 480 pages! Ouch! :D

Cass.
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Post by jemtheflute »

As a beginner, what I did, so far as I recall (looooong time ago! :sniffle: :o ) was just try to play tunes without tonguing, completely legato, and where it was necessary to separate notes of the same pitch or to give a rhythmic emphasis or stronger attack to a note, use one of the basic ITM ornaments - cut/tap/roll - trying out which seemed most effective in that particular location with reasonable facility. Later, when I learned to cran, roll "over-the-break" etc., I applied the same philosophy to making use of those techniques. Ditto for diaphragm pulses for rhythmic emphasis.
With familiarity, as has been said, these things become second nature and require little thought, though care has to be taken not to become too rote in one's application of ornaments. The natural tendency to use certain ones in certain ways/contexts is inevitable, and not intrinsically a bad thing, but it is always a good idea to retain self-awareness and try doing things a bit differently from time to time.
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gododdin
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Post by gododdin »

Diane - don't know if you've listened to these, but they certainly helped me, and they have exactly what you were asking for - un-ornamented tunes to which ornamentation is then added.
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Post by gododdin »

Doh! Forgot to add the link! Here you go:

http://www.kaled.org.uk/flutelesson/Welcome.html
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sbhikes
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Post by sbhikes »

Cass wrote:Hi...I've just ordered Grey's book, and I'm preparing myself for a very long, in depth, "go-over-it-49-times-before-you-understand-it", read!! :boggle:
I'm looking forward to it, in a perverse kind of way! 480 pages! Ouch! :D

Cass.
There is a lot of interesting reading in there. You will enjoy it. I enjoy it. It's kind of a hard book though. If you had no musical experience you would not be able to use this book. The first tune is rather difficult. And whatever you do, don't open the far end of the book. It's pretty scary.

I forgot how to read music in the intervening years between childhood and now. To bring it back I took a fiddle class for a while and refused to play from the tabulature sheets. But the fiddle isn't the piano so I didn't get very far. About all I understood was notes going up or down, but not really which note was which.

When I decided to try the flute again a few months ago, I pulled out an old recorder and bought one of these beginner recorder books. I was playing the same silly tunes I learned on day one of my piano lessons when I was 7 years old. But it brought back a lot of the knowledge I had lost.

Not enough to tackle any of the tunes in the rear end of Grey's book though, so I keep that end safely shut.

I will try to cut myself some slack, so to speak. I have a nice list of tunes that they play at the session. I will try to learn the tunes straight with only whatever ornaments come to my mind. I'm not incapable of ornamentation (I don't actually find it all that difficult), I'm just incapable of analyzing them like Grey does.

In a lot of ways I believe the book is mostly for classical musicians to convince them to set aside what they think they already know. And although most of my childhood was classical instruction, I never thought of myself as a "classical musician". I just liked music that required no creativity at that time in my life.

I've put all that away and now I just want to play music that is fun and sociable.
~Diane

My Credentials as a rank beginner on the flute
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wolvy
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Post by wolvy »

I think Grey's book is basically a good one. I think it is very detailed. He tries to explain the cut in detail. What will become 2nd nature to you does seem complicated at first. Imagine someone trying to write a book about how to ride a bike and the subtle body shifts you do to keep your balance. It could take many pages. This is sort of what Grey did with something simple like cutting. I think his approach is sound and on most flutes seems to work well. But everyone's flute is different and our "touches" to the flute are different. Also, you might find that for some notes, his cut method works, but maybe another tone hole needs something different. Just take your time, experiment with what works. Listen to good flute CDs so you know what it is supposed to sound like. And take your time. Time spent well on this is a good investment. Eventually all of this (like the bike) will go into muscle memory and what seemed really complicated - well, you just won't even think about it. And then the joy of the music can come out easier - 'cuz, at the end of the day, that's what its all about, right? : )

- Tom
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Post by Cubitt »

What may help you is to understand the purpose of a cut or strike. Both are intended to articulate the note without using the tongue. The only thing essential about the performance of either is that you should only hear one note, not two. Therefore, if you hear the note beneath the fiinger being used to perform the cut, you are doing it incorrectly. For a strike, you should not hear the note from the hole being covered. Using a cut or strike should sort of "pop" the note. Concentrate on that, and worry less about the fingering. Go for the sound.

With Grey, or anyone who attempts to put each part of a simple movement into words, the explanation will sometimes make your eyes glaze over. Get someone to demonstrate it for you, if you can. Once you've done it, even once, the words will take on new meaning.
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Post by meemtp »

This has been said before, but: LISTEN....listen to every flute player you can as well as other instruments. Stick to solo or duet tracks, preferably unaccompanied so you get the subtleties of the music without trying to hear through an accompanist. *Know* the music, practice, focus on what you want to hear when you play, be patient, and it will all fall into place...trust me. It's not fast, but it'll happen.
Corin
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rh
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Post by rh »

looks like he pretty much just cuts with his top hand G and B, am i seeing this correctly?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8_nc4-xxdMA
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sbhikes
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Post by sbhikes »

Wow, I think I want to learn to play the bowl of cereal like that one guy!
~Diane

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Aanvil
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Post by Aanvil »

sbhikes wrote:Wow, I think I want to learn to play the bowl of cereal like that one guy!

Cereal for jigs, chowder for hornpipes and consume for reels... stew for aires?

:P
Aanvil

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