Making legato whistling sound better

[squidgirl]

First, a confession. I started with the Bill Ochs tutorial, which has you tonguing all your notes for at least the first half of the book... and I mostly just kind of kept the habit. Well, most days I'll play a few tunes legato, but they don't sound very good to me. So when I play to please myself, I go back to tonguing.

I can't seem to get my legato playing to get over that horrible wailing beginners' sound -- not the cool bagpipey wailing that a good legato reel can have, but something reminiscent of that bad warbly wailing that a kid gets when wiggling fingers over the whistle's holes without knowing how to play a tune.

I've tried pinpointing contributing factors to this horrid sound. Here's the ones I've come up with and am working on remedying, but hopefully you can think of more, 'cos my legato playing still needs help.

First, there's the blips and bleeps that happen when the fingerings of notes is sloppy, like when bits of fingering overlap or have gaps between them. On the bright side, I've been persistent enough with my daily legato practice to notice and correct most of this, which is good -- it's definitely made my playing more precise.

Then there's the rhythm thing. When I play with tonguing, I'm basically keeping the beat with my tongue, and in the microseconds when my tongue blocks the flow of air and sound, my fingering has a bit of leeway for rhythmic slop. And when I take away the tonguing, that bit of rhythmic sloppiness comes to the fore and drives me mad. And while I'm not super talented musically, one thing I do have is a good sense of rhythm, and music with a sloppy beat is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me.

So I've figured out that I need to move my rhythm-keeping from my tongue to my fingers, but this is more easily said than done. When I'm unconsciously lilting a tune under my breath, I'm keeping time via a sort of lingual (quasi tongued) subvocalization, unless I literally bite my tongue to prevent it.

I've started consciously visualizing keeping time with my fingers when I listen to music, or annoyingly tapping my fingers to the beat as I listen... any other suggestions? Or any other factors that you can think of that make legato playing sound crisp and clear and rhythmic, rather than reminiscent of cats exchanging insults?

[Jason Paul]

I'm no expert, but two things come to mind.

First, not all tonguing is bad. Listening to good players, you'll see that they still use tonguing. It's not a case where your choices are tonguing every note or never tonguing at all. There's a mix.

Second, when you're new it's always a good idea to slow down. Most new players try to play too fast too soon (myself included), and that results in sloppy playing.

Jason

[mordred]

i am a beginner myself but maybe i can help. When i was around 13 i learnt to play the recorder back in school, thus developing the habit of tonguing (as teachers taught). It's about 3 weeks i picked up the whistle, willing to learn.
The first difficulty encountered was just that, not to tongue notes.
You could try and force yourself to play any tune without tonguing any note, and by separating them just by using cuts or taps. You'll notice that if you want to play fast, tonguing will become an obstacle.
This is what i did in the beginning, and then moved to inserting a bit of tonguing with care, where i thought it would fit well (i.e. i tongue in "the boys of bluehill" but i don't in the "morrison's jig").

PS. just tried to play something and i noticed i almost not tongue anymore, it really depends on the tune..

[cavefish]

sometimes you gotta tongue-miss squid

[sbhikes]

Being a beginner myself with a recorder history and a tad of the silver flute, I know exactly what you are saying squidgirl about the difficulty keeping time with your fingers instead of your tongue. It's really hard to put the finger down or up exactly when it's supposed to. But it can be done. You just have to practice a lot.

I find it helps me to play into Garage Band (recording program on my mac) and then play it back to hear how awful it is, then try to consciously do better on the parts I could hear were awful. (Now if only my screaming parrots would be quiet I could post one of these recordings.)

I rarely play very fast, either. And my tune choice is mainly tunes with really nice melodies, not reels which for some reason don't sound like they have a melody at all to me unless they are played really fast. Also, using cuts and taps really helps crispen it up and get my fingers to learn rhythm while allowing me a little purposeful sloppiness.

[Wanderer]

I had these exact same problems

I moved to a more legato playing style by first tonguing only on the beat, rather than every note. That helped me keep rhythm with my tongue, but got me in the habit of playing short strings of notes without tonguing.

Then, I started tonguing at the start of phrases. Eventually, I got to where I could keep good rhythm with my fingers, and only tongue where I like the feel of it.

So basically, i just kind of weaned myself off of it slowly.

[medit8b1]

The most important element to playing a good legato line (IMHO) is breath support, ie. breathing and supporting from the diaphram. Low octave notes especially require very controlled, even breath. Notice I am using the word "breath" and not "blow". I have found breathing excercises I learned from singing lessons to be very helpful.
I feel for you in regards to the tounging issue, it is very hard to untrain and then retrain your body, but as a previous poster said, not all tounging is bad (keep your mind out of the gutter boys). Indeed, if you listen to Brian Finnegans playing (Flook) he's tounging almost as much as Ian Anderson!
And as you've already noticed, the other important aspect to legato playing is fast, accurate finger movement/changes between notes. I still have to concentrate going between a B to a Cnat to make sure I put both fingers down at the same time, otherwise I get an extra note! All of this adds up to, you geussed it, practice, practice, practice!
This subject also highlights the point that just because it's slow, it's not necessarily easier to play an air (well) than it is a fast reel.

[Whitmores75087]

A: Try playing with a metronome.
B: If you play in a band you'll find the guitar helps a lot
C: When I was a teenager I noticed a whistler playing with his tongue under the beak of the mouthpiece. I tried it and found it helped keep my tongue under control. An unintended and positive consequence from this was that it "forced" me to find a way to replace tonguing. When I inadvertently ended up doing was using a glottal stop. I noticed I was doing this when I decided one day to put in heavy duty earplugs. I could notice a little blip in my head now and then and I traced it to inadvertant throat closing similar to the motion that creates a K sound, but without the "ay" sound that usualy follows the "k". This creates a very quiet stop that has the desired effect from tonguing, but is much more silent. (Sorry if I drifted off topic).

[chas]

The most important element to playing a good legato line (IMHO) is breath support, ie. breathing and supporting from the diaphram. Low octave notes especially require very controlled, even breath. Notice I am using the word "breath" and not "blow". I have found breathing excercises I learned from singing lessons to be very helpful.

This was the first thing that occurred to me, too. My flute teacher (who advocates total-legato playing, and anyway, Irish flute playing generally involves much less tonguing than whistling) found that my breath wasn't rhythmic enough. So he gave me a couple of exercises that Squid might benefit from. First is play with your breath perfectly even -- you really can't do this on the whistle, but try to give the whistle as even an amount of breath as possible. Don't worry about how you sound; if you do everything perfectly it will still sound like shoot. Try this for awhile each time you play. Once you get proficient at keeping an even breath stream, then try accenting the first note of each measure. Again on the whistle this won't be the same as on the flute, but through some combination of stronger breath and maybe holding the note a few milliseconds longer, you can do it. Once you can do both of these you have the beginning of breath management. After that it's all about the music -- finding the important notes to accent and taking breaths in the appropriate places. Those are really the hard part.

[TheSpoonMan]

When I inadvertently ended up doing was using a glottal stop. I noticed I was doing this when I decided one day to put in heavy duty earplugs. I could notice a little blip in my head now and then and I traced it to inadvertant throat closing similar to the motion that creates a K sound, but without the "ay" sound that usualy follows the "k". This creates a very quiet stop that has the desired effect from tonguing, but is much more silent. (Sorry if I drifted off topic).

Mmm, but that basically is tonguing, just with a different tool than the tongue. It still creates the same staccatto-ish effect, tho not as pronounced. Also glottal-stopping too much and too fast- I knwo this form harmonica- can create some ugly grunting sounds that don't complement the music at all. THough yes, it's definately a useful technique that ahs its place

[TonyHiggins]

Definitely work with a metronome. Tonguing the downbeats will improve your sense of rhythm. In addition...notice that the down beat is extended a little longer than the following notes. Try exaggerating that to further a feeling of rhythm. So, for instance, play a jig with a drawn out waltz feel by really dragging out the first of each 3 notes. Something similar can be done with a reel, even infusing a touch of hornpipe rhythm to it. If you do that with your fingers, legato-wise, you'll get a better feel for the rhythmic pulse you're trying for. As a matter of fact, I'd work on some hornpipes before tackling reels. And if jigs are a problem, work on some slides. And go slow!!
Tony

[FJohnSharp]

And if jigs are a problem, work on some slides.
Tony

Why are slides easier than jigs? (This is s genuine question and not a challenge to your statement).

[Bloomfield]

... Tonguing the downbeats will improve your sense of rhythm. ...

I would suggest you not follow this advice, nor the similar advice offered by Wanderer. There is no point in getting into stylistically bad habits that you will later have to unlearn.

Slur into strong beats and tongue only off-beats. This is a rule of thumb, of course, and there are many exceptions etc etc. but at least it will get you sounding right.

The most sensible advice offered so far is to slow down. Slow down to the point that you can consciously not tongue. You have analyzed your problem correctly, and you will take a big step forward in your playing as you learn to keep a steady beat with your fingers and not your tongue (which I don't think will take long). A good thing to work on is tunes with runs in them like The Cup of Tea (BAGF GE~E2 etc.).

[colomon]

Slur into strong beats and tongue only off-beats. This is a rule of thumb, of course, and there are many exceptions etc etc. but at least it will get you sounding right.

Wow, I couldn't agree less.

The most sensible advice offered so far is to slow down. Slow down to the point that you can consciously not tongue. You have analyzed your problem correctly, and you will take a big step forward in your playing as you learn to keep a steady beat with your fingers and not your tongue (which I don't think will take long).

Agreed.

[Whitmores75087]

When I inadvertently ended up doing was using a glottal stop. I noticed I was doing this when I decided one day to put in heavy duty earplugs. I could notice a little blip in my head now and then and I traced it to inadvertant throat closing similar to the motion that creates a K sound, but without the "ay" sound that usualy follows the "k". This creates a very quiet stop that has the desired effect from tonguing, but is much more silent. (Sorry if I drifted off topic).

Mmm, but that basically is tonguing, just with a different tool than the tongue. It still creates the same staccatto-ish effect, tho not as pronounced. Also glottal-stopping too much and too fast- I knwo this form harmonica- can create some ugly grunting sounds that don't complement the music at all. THough yes, it's definately a useful technique that ahs its place

Interesting! I do notice a grunt thing on the Clarke original, but not on others. It may have to do with the air requirements, and that sort of relates to the harmonica, which is also very "open".