Friendly Proposition

[jim stone]

'I'm just urging more of us to post tunes so that we would be able to consider the source of the comments and advice being offered.
But it's pretty clear that most posters would rather talk than play.'

Here's the ad hominem--people who don't post tunes would rather
'talk than play.' Suppose it's true. It simply doesn't follow
that posting tunes would enable newbies (in whom we're
specially interested) to evaluate the source of comments
and advice. For one thing, being newbies, often posting
for the first or second time, they don't know clips and snips exists
and aren't about to start searching it for the source of the advice.
Not a practical remedy.

Also unfair. A number of us aren't posting tunes because we
lack the technical ability/know how. Also people might
rather play than post tunes on clips and snips!
Also plenty of people who would rather play than talk
are shy about performing in public, as Cocus himself
points out. Hardly follows they prefer talking to playing.
In short, the argument 'lots of people aren't posting tunes, ergo
they would rather talk than play' is a non-sequitur.

Encouraging people to post clips is fine, but the ad hominems
about those who don't are unlikely to encourage people.
Nor do I see this as a practicalsolution to the problem
that concerns this thread.

If you really wish to encourage people, just encourage them, I say.
Works best if you don't take slaps at em too.

[djm]

My favorite fallacy is ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion).

Oh, thx, I always wondered what "i.e." stood for.

djm

[rh]

It simply doesn't follow
that posting tunes would enable newbies (in whom we're
specially interested) to evaluate the source of comments
and advice. For one thing, being newbies, often posting
for the first or second time, they don't know clips and snips exists
and aren't about to start searching it for the source of the advice.
Not a practical remedy.

Maybe whoever wants to can post a link to their clip in their sig file.
Like this:

[cowtime]

A number of us aren't posting tunes because we
lack the technical ability/know how.

That's my problem. I've been told how to do it, just haven't been able to actually do it. And it is intimidating to put your playing out there especially for folks like myself who have no sessions and have to rely on recordings to try to "get" it.

(although I've gotta say, I'd probably not do it now out of sheer cussedness. I know that's stupid, but I don't like to feel pressured to do anything-Wanderer my interpretation was the same as yours)

[talasiga]

What bollocks. ..........

........You're usually more on the ball than that.

..................

Presently too busy on the bollocks ......

[Wanderer]

What bollocks. ..........

........You're usually more on the ball than that.

..................

Presently too busy on the bollocks ......

Now that's funny I didn't even notice at the time.

[Wombat]

I know one of the worlds best guitarists. He's utterly inarticulate about what it is he's doing. If you want to learn from him, watch his hands, by all means, but don't ask him a question.

My point, precisely. We may not be able to watch his hands but we could certainly hear what he is doing with them.

Yes but you've only quoted half of what I was saying.

The full package in a teacher is someone who can demonstrate and explain. You don't have to be a great or even a very good player to be a great teacher if you are a first rate communicator who knows his limitations and can produce the right models. Most great musicians start with teachers they soon leave behind as do great footballers and mathematicians. Great football coaches were seldom great players; they were often marginal players or highly promising players whose career was ended by a bad injury very early. They then channel their passion into coaching. I would not recommend that someone take guitar lessons from the great guitarist I mentioned earlier.

You can evaluate the worth of musical advice given on these boards by how well people explain themselves, what examples they give, how they justify what they say. Evidence of their playing ability is no guarantee that they have thought about what they are doing enough to communicate it at even the most basic level.

[talasiga]

Its an amazing topic when an unremarkable comment by Wombat can hold so much clout. And just as well too.

Meritorious positions, like politics, can breed strange bed fellows.

So be it!

[cocusflute]

[Cocusflute dropped] the entire "titled nobility" discussion completely, and instead is wishing more people would post clips so he could get a better judge of their playing ability to help lend the appropriate bias to their posts about music. I really am alright with that sentiment, and again, I apologize ...

Thanks, but no need to apologize. I'll end my contribution to this thread by saying how very nice it would be if all the people we are reading would post so that we could hear what they sound like. Do we not care what people sound like? Don't we care about what they are doing with their instrument?
Art students at the end of the year share their work in an exhibit. Musical schools have end of the year recitals. Most festival workshops I've attended present a student performance.
I am not an elite musician and I am grateful when elite musicians welcome me to a session. I welcome my colleagues on this board to record a clip on http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/flute.html . I'd like to get to know you better.
In that spirit I will post more tunes - and in the spirit of a very modest level of accomplishment.

[hans]

Encouraging people to post clips is fine, but the ad hominems
about those who don't are unlikely to encourage people.
Nor do I see this as a practical solution to the problem
that concerns this thread.

If you really wish to encourage people, just encourage them, I say.
Works best if you don't take slaps at em too.

Thanks Jim, I agree.

Three quarters of voters found Doc's proposal for a visible expert ranking system a bad idea.

Most seem to disagree with Cocusflute's counter-proposal to have a repository of audible clips from regular contributors, so one can get an idea of musical proficiency beside the written word. Or at least be opposed to make this a requirement.

I like the anarchistic spirit here.

I would also like to encourage more sharing of music, via posting to clipssnips or to other web places and providing links. rt's idea of audio clips in his signature are great! Thanks! People are keen on fancy avatars, showing usually not what they look like at all, but using the signature to show what one is up to, what tune one is struggling with right now etc could be a great way to bring music into these forums.

[talasiga]

.....It's not the Latin I object to (harmless, if dorky). .......

Mala grammatica non vitiat nemo.

[emmline]

... how very nice it would be if all the people we are reading would post so that we could hear what they sound like. Do we not care what people sound like? Don't we care about what they are doing with their instrument?
...

I understand why you would be curious about how people here play. I'm curious about it too.
But here's why I won't post a clip: Although I've played music of one sort or other since age 7, and the whistle for years, I simply don't have the mind/hand coordination to ever play in a way that I would consider worthy of sharing. So...I know something about and enjoy music. I enjoy my whistles (and fiddle, and piano.) But the sound I produce sure isn't worth your time to listen to. Does that mean I should leave? (rhetorical question--I'm not going to.)

Elizabeth Bennet, from the Pride & Prejudice script:
"I'm not afflicted with false modesty, when I say I play poorly..."

[rh]

I would also like to encourage more sharing of music, via posting to clipssnips or to other web places and providing links. rt's idea of audio clips in his signature are great! Thanks! People are keen on fancy avatars, showing usually not what they look like at all, but using the signature to show what one is up to, what tune one is struggling with right now etc could be a great way to bring music into these forums.

i'm not a professional writer, but i write all the time on this and other forums without a second thought. after reading cocusflute's posts, i figured why not share a clip or two -- i've got several on the website that i share with family, friends, etc. the ones i have in the sig are new -- the flute one i did yesterday after not having even touched the thing for a couple of weeks. the tone is unfocused, the ornaments are sloppy -- but if you came into my living room yesterday and asked for a tune, that's what you'd have gotten. when i get a chance to play some more and feel like recording a clip, maybe i'll post that. it doesn't have to be etched in vinyl for the ages, we're all progressing (or regressing, in my case -- having the clip out there is a good motivation to pick up the flute more consistently).

i'll never be a professional recording artist, i don't do sessions, i'm just a guy who likes to have a tune or three to add some color to his life. so i've got nothing to lose -- and comments are welcome, if they come from an sincere desire to be helpful.

and i am 100% in agreement that posting clips anywhere should be voluntary. no compulsion and all that.

peace
rh

[jim stone]

Good discussion.

The idea of posting clips is fine, of course.

I continue to feel that the best we can do, in advising
noobies, is to say briefly how long we have been
playing, possibly how seriously.

Longevity
is no guarantee of good advice, obviously,
nor does being new prove the advice
is bad. The advice must, and will, speak for
itself, which is as it should be.

It's just
a helpful bit of context--noobies may find it
helpful to know that the adviser has
been playing for decades, for two weeks,
or whatever.

Suggest we do this, voluntarily of course.
It's been helpful in the past. It doesn't
involve moderators, mentors, or whatever.

Imperfect, helpful, easy, indecisive, voluntary.
That's about as good as things get, right?

[hans]

I continue to feel that the best we can do, in advising
noobies, is to say briefly how long we have been
playing, possibly how seriously.

...

It's just
a helpful bit of context--noobies may find it
helpful to know that the adviser has
been playing for decades, for two weeks,
or whatever.

Suggest we do this, voluntarily of course.
...

First I read: "nobodies" .

Where do you wish this information to be posted?
In a person's Profile?
In a special thread perhaps, like "Time Done"?
Or as a two digit figure in the signature (for years served)?

What does it mean to be playing seriously, seriously?
When does music become serious?
Do you mean professional?
Making one's living through playing music?