Collapsing reeds

waymer · Post by **waymer** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:33 pm

Lately every time I scrape a chanter reed until it crows then continue until it gets in tune it plays that day. The next day or so I pull it out and the lips have closed so that there is no elevation between them. no more air gets through. Is it dead?
Any ideas?

AlanB · Post by **AlanB** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:04 pm

Possibly.

Take the reed apart, and then hold the blades together (without the staple inserted). Look to see if there is a good opening (nice ellipse) at the eye/lips. If so, you might be able to adapt the staple to create less 'outward' pressure that might be causing the blades to close as the tails are forced open by the staple (You'd need to make the taper narrower and longer, perhaps, to compensate).

Also, look at the inside of the reed, about the first 5mm above where the staple lay (the shoulders). The sides may be curled/crushed in by the binding . This can cause the reed to collapse (or shut) over time. Or maybe your tails are too thick.

Personally, I think it's as easy to go on to make another reed, but at least, by inspecting these things, you can get a feel for weak areas.

But without knowing your climate/measurements etc., it's all a stab in the dark.

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:15 pm

Do you let the reed rest for a day or tow between production stages?

Pat.

waymer · Post by **waymer** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:30 pm

I got a great reed once with out letting it rest (it has since developed an auto-crann on bottom D) so for a long time I wasn't letting them rest before scraping. then I had a couple of reads collapse that played well for awile. So I tied three reeds up and let them rest for a week before scraping. one of them was good but I cracked it sliding it out of the chanter to check one of the other ones

so I don't know if it would have collapsed or not because I threw it away. The other two collapsed after a night. I am letting some rest right now but wanted to check the forum for any sort of pathology that may have developed in my technique.

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:55 pm

try a slightly smaller sanding cylinder. You may be sanding the inner slips too flat for the cane you're using.

jdevereux · Post by **jdevereux** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:58 pm

You've got to let the cane rest between tying it on and scraping. Ideally, you really should make the reed up, let it sit for a few days (although a week or two would be better), scrape it until it just sounds, let it sit anther week or two, scrape a little bit more, et cetera. The most important thing is to break the reed in really slowly, giving the cane plenty of time to adjust to its radically new shape. The reed in my D chanter was scraped over a period of about six weeks, and in the year and a half I have played it since, I have never had a problem with it, and adjust it very rarely. It has survived every kind of weather and several trans-Atlantic crossings with no adverse effects. Once the reed was finished, the only thing I have done is occasionally flex the cane to achieve the aperture I want. As long as your reeds are well made, there should be no reason whatsoever for your pipes to be any more trouble than a flute or fiddle --indeed, I find that my fiddles suffer more from traveling than my pipes do. The myth that the pipes are temperamental and difficult to maintain is perpetuated largely by the fact that most people can't make good reeds.

-Jack Devereux

AlanB · Post by **AlanB** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:34 am

Brian Lee wrote:try a slightly smaller sanding cylinder. You may be sanding the inner slips too flat for the cane you're using.

I tend to think the opposite. (Obviously armed without info., of Waymers measurements). I find that the the smaller diam former used, then the thinner the corners/sides and therefore the weaker the sides are, leading to......

I'm lucky if I ever let a reed sit more than 1 day prior to scraping, but I will do the scrape and final tweak over 3-4 days. But often, the needs of the piper outweigh the needs of the reed, if you know what I mean.

It would be (vaguely) interesting to have an overview of makers 'resting times', as I've never met a maker yet, who thought it an overly important part of the process.

Once the reed was finished, the only thing I have done is occasionally flex the cane to achieve the aperture I want.

Yes. I think people miss this one because they are afraid of their reed. If the slip has been formed correctly, it can withstand a fair bit of handling.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:42 am

I'll make the reed and let it stand for a day or so before I begin the scraping. Over all it is a 3 - 4 day building project, tweaking and playing in as I go along.

Flexing the reed is also something I do to keep the reed "limber", but excessive flexing may do more harm than good.

billh · Post by **billh** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:50 am

AlanB wrote:...
It would be (vaguely) interesting to have an overview of makers 'resting times', as I've never met a maker yet, who thought it an overly important part of the process.

I think BK is one - he said at a masterclass in Dublin that his minimum time between production of a reed and delivery was 6 weeks. Whether that's an ironclad rule or just a goal I can't say, but he seemed fairly firm on it.

In my experience reeds do continue to change for weeks or months after making even if not played, so it does seem prudent.

As I recall GW also prefers a couple days' or weeks' rest for reeds during intermediate stages of their production.

Bill

snoogie · Post by **snoogie** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:16 am

jdevereux wrote:The most important thing is to break the reed in really slowly, giving the cane plenty of time to adjust to its radically new shape. The reed in my D chanter was scraped over a period of about six weeks, and in the year and a half I have played it since, I have never had a problem with it, and adjust it very rarely.

I agree. Normally, I follow a similar process.

Let the cane rest for at least a day after tying up, then scrape til it crows/starts to play, then do one little tweak no more often than once every 2-3 days. Less often if the humidity changes.

I'm very slow to make changes to a new reed if it was playing ok, and then the next day its not...I'll study it for a couple of days before deciding which tweak to do next. This does two things, it teaches me to think about what the root cause of the issue is and how to correct it (as well as give me time to go thru Pat Sky, Tim Britton, David Quinn, and Dave Haggarty's books looking for a solution); second, it gives the reed time to adjust to the weather or whatever settling the cane may be doing.

The only adjustments I do to my reed is to slide the bridle up or down a gnat's whisker to open or close the lips a microscopic amount due to humidity changes (or if I'm in a session and don't want to play quite so loud..I'll close the lips slightly). When I'm playing solo, I like the lips opened a bit more to give the reed more responsiveness.

AlanB · Post by **AlanB** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:17 am

Bill,

It's okay for the instrument maker making reeds for their own work, but I doubt that reedmakers can persuade the piper to part with the instrument for more than a week or 2 (particularly when they've heard people boasting about making a reed in 1/2 an hour etc.,).

There's an ideal world, and then there's impatient pipers. 'What can you do'

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:35 am

My best playing reed took me a total of 6 months to make. I started it in the summer and worked it down and I finished it in Feb. It played great for 7 years and then mysteriously, it died. I sure do miss it as it was very well tuned, all the way to top D.

If you want to hurry the process up and speed up the "resting time", try heat setting the reed head (Thanks to David Daye for the tip).

After tying on the head and before scraping, use a hairdryer on high about 8 inches from the reed head and heat for 5 minutes, then let cool and retie and heat set again if the sides haven't sealed and you need to retie again or a few more "agains".

I brace the hairdryer in my bench vice and I have a nail in a scrap piece of wood that I place 4-5" away from the hairdryer nozzle in the airstream. David puts his reed into a tube.

After scraping to the first crow, heat set the reed head again, then finish/tune the reed to the chanter.

If they still collapse (what bridle style do you use?), you may have to alter your sanding cylinder size as mentioned before.

P O' Hare · Post by **P O' Hare** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:34 am

Hi all

i think when it comes to resting times everyone has there own preference as to what works best from them, some people dont let them rest at all and some like BK will let them rest for several weeks, but what is important is that the end result is what is desired,
listen to John Mc Sherry's latest album "Tripswitch", that reed was made in about 25 minutes from start to finish with only the slightest of tweaks to close the lips down the following day.
It goes to show that the resting period is not vital, but if you find that it improves your own reeds then it is. Do what works for you!!!!