contracting out pipemaking

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Elmek
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Post by Elmek »

Rory wrote
there are some excellent woodturners out there
Am beginning to wonder if you have ever seen a set of pipes Rory - if and when you do pay particular attention to them and you will see there is a lot more to them than just simple woodturning

Perhaps you should get out more :o

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Post by rorybbellows »

Elmek wrote:
Rory wrote
there are some excellent woodturners out there
Am beginning to wonder if you have ever seen a set of pipes Rory - if and when you do pay particular attention to them and you will see there is a lot more to them than just simple woodturning

Perhaps you should get out more :o

John
OK Elmek you may have read my posts ,but you have not understood them,so I,ll explain !!
There is alot more than just simple woodturning ,yes,but there is SOME woodturning and what I,m saying is that this woodturning could be contracted out !!

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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

rorybbellows wrote:
The thing is that there are some excellent woodturners out there, and if Froment or Wooff were applying their quality control ...
... are you saying those two men have the time, or wish to spend such QC'ing another's turning work? This does not seem reasonable or realistic somehow.
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Post by rorybbellows »

Joseph E. Smith wrote:
rorybbellows wrote:
The thing is that there are some excellent woodturners out there, and if Froment or Wooff were applying their quality control ...
... are you saying those two men have the time, or wish to spend such QC'ing another's turning work? This does not seem reasonable or realistic somehow.
this is of course just a hypothetical discussion ,but what is important to the pipemaker is the internal work done on the bores ,which of course is done by the pipemaker ,the quality of the external turnings can be accessed by the pipemakers eye in seconds

I would think the turning of ivories is very time consuming and some of them have no influence on the sound of the pipes at all ,so these could easily turned on contract !!

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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

rorybbellows wrote:
I would think the turning of ivories is very time consuming and some of them have no influence on the sound of the pipes at all ,so these could easily turned on contract !!

RORY
Given the availability and the cost of ivory, it is one thing I wouldn't farm out.

Other mounting materials have their ups and downs and can be tricky and sometimes dangerous (I have wirnessed a few faux-ivory explosions on the lathe) and something I think a pipemaker would want to be in control of them selves... if for anything, keeping tabs on QC.

While an interesting idea, I am of the opinion that self respecting pipemakers would want to monopolize every aspect that goes into the construction of their pipes. Call it a pride thing, but I doubt they would want their names associated with crap work and I equally doubt they'd want to take the time to check t6he work of another... let alone redo something that wasn't done to their high expectations.
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billh
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ivory turners

Post by billh »

Yes, there are some excellent woodturners out there. This doesn't offer a lot of assistance in the pipemaking department, however.

While everyone has their strength, and there are no doubt some pipemakers for whom woodturning is a weak point, the typical pipemaking timbers behave quite differently from the timbers used by most woodturners. Ebony and african blackwood, for instance, prefer techniques that are nearly like "machining" techniques when compared to the behavior of other hardwoods. This means that the highly developed skills of woodturners are not necessarily right for the job without further adaptation... even the turners' tools have to be ground differently for these very dense hardwoods than for other timbers, for best results.

In the end, the amount of time that could be saved by having a woodturner do the "beads" on chanters, regulators, and drones - which is pretty much all the turned stuff - would be a small proportion of the work that goes into a set. For most makers it's not worth the bother of sending stuff out and waiting for it to come back in, etc... and it of course requires a high degree of standardization. Not ideal for a "bespoke" pipemaking service. And how many (good, skilled) woodturners would want to do this work? There are parts of it, like turning thin timber drone slides to fit hand-rolled ferrules, that aren't particularly suited to woodworking lathes either.

In other words, it's a subspecialty within woodturning. Unless a woodturner had a specific interest in pipemaking I don't see a skills fit here.

Now, once upon a time, when ivory and bone ornaments were more common in general (i.e. pre-plastics age), there was a specialist class of craftspeople who did pretty much nothing but ivory and bone turning. There is a belief among a number of pipe historians (presumably with evidence, though I don't know the details offhand) that in the days of the classic pipemakers, some makers did indeed contract out their ivory turning to these specialists. For instance, I have heard several people express the opinion that the famous ivories on the "beehive set" were in fact either third party turnings or, more likely, aftermarket additions, rather than the work of Kenna (who stamped the chanter) or Ryan (who, IIRC, is thought to have made the body of the set). However this craft is now extinct except for the odd[*] hobbyist, who in any case probably doesn't use ivory any more. Bagpipe makers are probably the primary "ivory turners" nowadays, practicing their skills on plastic.

So Rory, you are about 100 years too late, sorry. ;-)

Bill

[*] - and I do mean odd...
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Post by rorybbellows »

If this kind of skill could be applied to the turning of ivory(plastic)mounts and the wood parts it would certainly make for spectactular pipes
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

rorybbellows wrote:If this kind of skill could be applied to the turning of ivory(plastic)mounts and the wood parts it would certainly make for spectactular pipes
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RORY
... and no doubt cost the pipemaker more than they would wish to spend. :lol:

I am not saying that farming the work of turning out hasn't, couldn't or shouldn't be done, but to date I am unaware of any pipemaker that makes a regular habit of this, nor would condiser it a viable exercise.

On the other side of that coin, I might be one of the first in line for a flat-pitched fullset kit, should one become commercially available and was crafted by a reputable pipemaker.
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Post by djm »

My pipemaker has told me that it is the metalwork that takes him the most time and grief. He keeps the simple woodturning stuff as a relief for himself. The amount of time he'd have to spend checking another's work would erase any savings. The market is too small, and the quantities involved for the type of jobbing out that you are suggesting just don't justify it.

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Post by Cayden »

Nobody mentioned copy turning lathes which are said to have been worked by one pipemaker during the 80s and are still whispered to be in use in another workshop.

I have heard of makers allegedly having their keys cut by the bucketload.
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Post by rorybbellows »

I think Davy Stephenson does something with CNC lathe,s


Does anyone know what the letters"CNC " stands for.

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Post by No E »

CNC = Computer Numeric Control

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Post by Chris Bayley »

Computer Numerical Control

Did a course some years back in using CNC machines (Lathe and Mill) to see if it was viable but decided cost outweighed any advantages. As Bill said turning is only a small part. Using hand control means you can feel changes and compensate especially in boring and reaming.

The examples of ornamental turning above show just what a lathe is capable of if you have the time and from surviving sets of pipes some makers were certainly in possession of ornamental lathes e.g. the Reids from a set that could once be seen in the Horniman Museum London. Yes Rory it has been applied to pipes.

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Post by kenr »

Peter has heard of pipemakers "alledgedly having keys cut by the bucketload"

Can't see your problem here. Dave Williams for example almost always used cast keys on his pipes - are you suggesting his product was sub-standard as a consequence. He was pretty disparaging about a certain other pipe maker who spent a lifetime with an old hacksaw cutting regulator keys!

I've also heard comments on Long Note programmes about the old pipemakers that some of them had the tapered brass sleeves for drones etc made by outside contractors.

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Post by billh »

kenr wrote:Peter has heard of pipemakers "alledgedly having keys cut by the bucketload"

Can't see your problem here. Dave Williams for example almost always used cast keys on his pipes - are you suggesting his product was sub-standard as a consequence. He was pretty disparaging about a certain other pipe maker who spent a lifetime with an old hacksaw cutting regulator keys!

I've also heard comments on Long Note programmes about the old pipemakers that some of them had the tapered brass sleeves for drones etc made by outside contractors.

Ken
I think you may be thinking of contrabass regulator extensions, which may have been made by specialist brass instrument fabricators. Have never heard such a suggestion for other metal parts.

Cast keys are probably OK (provided the casting quality is high enough - jewelry grade), and I am experimenting with them, but they are not as strong as hand-forged keys. For this reason I am reluctant to use them for chanter keys, but perhaps having the keys cast to approximate shape followed by a hand cold-forging pass would produce an equally strong key. This would of course take you halfway back to the totally hand-forged key approach in terms of fabrication time and effort, so possibly not worth the expense of the casting stage.

The likes of Kenna, Coyne, and Harrington formed their regulator keys from sheet, which was folded to form the side tabs - this may also end up being stronger than castings, depending on the details. Certainly many of these old keys have held up well over >150 years.

I don't see a problem with machine cut keys or casting, provided the end result is strong enough and well formed - there will be considerable hand work involved in getting from machine cut keys to the end product.

Bill
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