Linseed vs. Almond Oil

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

Since the suggestion to use linseed oil has come up too many times for me, I have a few questions that arise. I have been using almond oil for the past few years and find it works quite well, but am curious as to the properties of linseed, i.e. does it gum up at all, how well does it absorb. Also I am aware there are different kinds of linseed oil, what kind are you supposed to use, and can anyone suggest a brand they are satisfied with?

[Tim2723]

At the risk of becoming known as the oil nazi, here is the Material Safety Data sheet for linseed oil

http://www.conncoll.edu/offices/envheal ... edOil.html

Note that prolonged exposure may cause dermatitis or allergic reactions.

Don't beat me up guys, just trying to be helpful.

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

I think the points given at the link you provided are very valid. It makes me think, why should you put something in your flute, that isn't food safe, hence perhaps almond or walnut oil is a safer choice.

[Tim2723]

Almond oil is a very popular choice, with a proper preservative to prevent spoiling (usually vitimin E). Walnut oil can be a problem for those with nut allergies and should be used with appropriate care.

[dow]

Greetings, Oil Nazi.

I believe that the linseed oil that the Portuguese piper of Chicago is referring to is raw linseed oil, not boiled. Raw linseed oil is flaxseed oil, and is a food grade oil. Do a search on flaxseed or linseed and see what you come up with...

Never mind, I did it for you. Here are a couple of interesting threads:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... t=flaxseed
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... t=flaxseed

Hope this helps.
dow

[Tim2723]

Ok, but your search was limited to the internal resources of C&F, which may or may not be based on scientific examination, but rather personal experiences. That said, here's the MSDS for raw linseed (flaxseed) oil. Note that it is still listed as an irritant and potential allergen.

I'm really not trying to be a wiseguy, but the data is available, so I use it.

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/LI/linseed_oil.html

And it does polymerize gradually on contact with air, so it might in time become 'gummy' on a flute. Not sure about that though, as I've never used it for that.

That an oil is listed as 'food grade' does not mean that it cannot be a problem for some portion of the population. It only means that it is of a quality suitable as food for those who can eat it. Even peanut oil is listed as a 'potential' hazard. The key word, of course, is potential. But remember that an estimated 1.5 million Americans alone are allergic to peanuts and their byproducts. People can be allergic to all kinds of foods, and our personal experiences may not apply to everyone. I suppose that if you looked hard enough, you could find someone allergic to practically anything.

That a product might be purchased from a 'health food' store is also no guarantee of personal safety. Indeed, it is almost always irrelevant. If one is allergic to a food product, then one is allergic. For instance, if someone has a violent, life-threatening reaction to shellfish (somewhat common), it matters nothing where the shellfish come from.

I make no recommendations, just offer the information available.

Peace to all,

The Oil Nazi,

Tim

[JohnB]

I wouldn't use linseed oil on flute, it's too thick also not a pure oil, certainly not food friendly. Almond oil is the stuff to use.

[jim stone]

just to say I was advised by a flutemaker I respect
considerably to stop oiling my irish flutes entirely,
so I did. That was three years ago. Not the slightest
problem since, FWIW.

[Sillydill]

Hey Ted,

CONGRATS on the new Ward!!!

I personally recommend Daniel Smith's Refined Linseed Oil, especially for new flutes. It penetrates better than any other oil I have tried. It is very thin, doesn't gum, does not appreciatively build and will eventually dry. Here's a link: http://www.danielsmith.com/products~sku~284+470+002.asp Admittedly some do not care for it's smell, but I don't find it unpleasant.

If you want some, just let me know (I have a quart of it).

All the Best!

Jordan

[Gordon]

Ok, but your search was limited to the internal resources of C&F, which may or may not be based on scientific examination, but rather personal experiences. That said, here's the MSDS for raw linseed (flaxseed) oil. Note that it is still listed as an irritant and potential allergen.

I'm really not trying to be a wiseguy, but the data is available, so I use it.

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/LI/linseed_oil.html

And it does polymerize gradually on contact with air, so it might in time become 'gummy' on a flute. Not sure about that though, as I've never used it for that.

That an oil is listed as 'food grade' does not mean that it cannot be a problem for some portion of the population. It only means that it is of a quality suitable as food for those who can eat it. Even peanut oil is listed as a 'potential' hazard. The key word, of course, is potential. But remember that an estimated 1.5 million Americans alone are allergic to peanuts and their byproducts. People can be allergic to all kinds of foods, and our personal experiences may not apply to everyone. I suppose that if you looked hard enough, you could find someone allergic to practically anything.

That a product might be purchased from a 'health food' store is also no guarantee of personal safety. Indeed, it is almost always irrelevant. If one is allergic to a food product, then one is allergic. For instance, if someone has a violent, life-threatening reaction to shellfish (somewhat common), it matters nothing where the shellfish come from.

I make no recommendations, just offer the information available.

Peace to all,

The Oil Nazi,

Tim

Your point(s) would be well taken if you'd recognize that the article/information you are linking us to is all about refined (ie-boiled) linseed oil, the sort used for oil painting. It is flamable, and - as suggested - dangerous to inhale, due to other ingredients added to the mix in the process. This process is done to speed the drying properties of the linseed oil, an important issue when trying to move ahead with a painting.
Linseed oil used for wood is really flaxseed oil, an oil processed by pressing flaxseed, the same way almond oil is processed pressing almonds, olive oil is processed with olives, etc.. It (flaxseed) has many flaws as a bore oil, but safety (outside of allergic reactions, which can occur with any oil, depending on an individual's specific allergies) is not one of them. Eaten, it has many of the same health benefits as eating fish, without ingesting mercury, which - unfortunately - is now common in most fish oils, due to pollution.
The main problem with flaxseed oil seems to be that it will eventually harden in the bore; some oils are considered drying oils, others not -- they drip out rather quickly and need to be constantly reapplied. Many makers use flaxseed to initially oil their flutes, allowing the oil to penetrate the pores and harden there in several layers -- in a sense, temporarily (it does leech out, over time), 'plasticizing' the wood in a more natural way. Problems arise when a flute owner regularly uses flaxseed, and the bore begins to gum up. Worse, it can harden key pads, which will then not work properly. Again, it will eventually leech out of the bore (unlike, say, polyurethane, or an impregnated wax). So, if you like flaxseed as a bore oil, the bottom line is that it need not, or should not, be applied frequently. Other than having a constantly slimy flute, almond oil, for eg, can be applied daily to no ill effect.
Most blackwood, IMO, rarely, if ever, need to be oiled anyway, if they are played regularly.
Gordon

[Sillydill]

Ro3b posted this link in the "Newbie.. Linseed Oils" thread. http://www.recorderhomepage.net/wood.html

It is a good read. I especially liked the ALTERNATIVE IMPREGNATION STRATEGIES section. Something I have personally been thinking about.

All the Best!

Jordan

[Tim2723]

Gordon, please understand that my only point in all of this is about allergies. If someone is not allergic, they can oil their flute with whatever they want, or not oil it at all if they choose. But be it raw or boiled, the allergy can still be an issue for some. Even the wildly popular almond oil has an allergy associated with it.

I'm not recommending any particular oil or other product for flute players. I'm only talking about allergies, but since the subject doesn't seem to be welcome around here, I'll stop doing that. I was sincerly trying to be helpful, but I'm tired of getting beat up.

[cavefish]

At the risk of becoming known as the oil nazi, here is the Material Safety Data sheet for linseed oil

http://www.conncoll.edu/offices/envheal ... edOil.html

Note that prolonged exposure may cause dermatitis or allergic reactions.

Don't beat me up guys, just trying to be helpful.

well that settles that ----great job Tim---------almond has no issues-except if one is allergic

[Gordon]

Gordon, please understand that my only point in all of this is about allergies. If someone is not allergic, they can oil their flute with whatever they want, or not oil it at all if they choose. But be it raw or boiled, the allergy can still be an issue for some. Even the wildly popular almond oil has an allergy associated with it.

I'm not recommending any particular oil or other product for flute players. I'm only talking about allergies, but since the subject doesn't seem to be welcome around here, I'll stop doing that. I was sincerly trying to be helpful, but I'm tired of getting beat up.

No, Tim, I think your imput is quite welcomed here - I certainly have no problem with your concerns; I was merely pointing out the difference(s) between processed linseed and raw linseed and its use as a bore oil.

Allergies are a completely different issue, and I agree with you. With that in mind, I would caution against any generalized idea of one oil being more allergenic than another. An individual might react badly to almond just as easily as flaxseed, and we all know about peanut oil. There are even some out there who react badly to pure, refined mineral oil, in spite of its common uses in petroleum jelly (Vaseline), and the most commercially avaible chap stick brands.

But then, as is often discussed here, many are allergic to the natural oils in the wood(s) itself, and this varies unpredictably, even though some woods are touted as "safer" for more people than others. Some poor souls even react to silver, although this is the least common, I would wager. Vegetable or mineral oils applied to the wood do one of two things; make the allergy worse, by bringing the natural wood oils to the surface, or acting as a barrier against them (especially if mixed with a wax). Then again, saliva does the same thing.

Unfortunately, the only way to find out if your skin will react badly to the wood, or to the oil, or to the combination of both, is to try a bunch of flute woods, oils and combinations of the two. In the worse cases, it means getting a new flute with a different wood, or a silver plate. Fortunately, most people -- even highly allergic people like myself -- seldom have severe reactions. But people that know beforehand that they can't have certain nuts, legumes or seeds should definitely use caution with an oil made from similar or related plants.

Gordon

[rama]

i use to religiously oil my flutes, i would oscillate between raw linseed oil and almond oil. i could never make my mind up. then after awhile i just used almond oil. nowadays, i might oil a flute once or twice a year. i don't believe it does anything other than make me feel like i really care. except if a flute is newly turned, then i would oil it a few times at first until the wood realizes it's actually a flute now and longer just a piece of wood sitting around.