Music of O'Carrollan

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:57 pm

I absolutely love O'Carrolan's stuff. Yet I don't hear a lot of it in sessions, not even O'Carrolan's Concerto, which was a staple in Ireland when I was a teenager (circa 1860).
Here's the odd thing. Although the music looks so easy on paper, on some tunes (Fanny Power especialy) it takes me forever to get to where I'm happy with the way I can make it sound.
Anyone else share my experience, or am I just O'Carrolan challenged?

garycrosby · Post by **garycrosby** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:05 pm

(snip)which was a staple in Ireland when I was a teenager (circa 1860).

Dude, you were a teenager in the 1860's? Cool!

it takes me forever to get to where I'm happy with the way I can make it sound.

It's because you are so old. You do remember know what they say about "old dogs" don't you?

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:12 pm

I've got to agree. Old Thurlough really knew how to write a tune!

His life history is also interesting.

I'm working on Carolan's Draught right now. It's a beautiful thing.

I think his stuff is a little too "refined" for session sets. He was obviously influenced by the classical guys of his day. I know he was good friends (at least through correspondance) with an Italian composeer that spent some time in Dublin.

Doc

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:32 pm

I think O'Carolan's stuff wasn't played much: first off it was kind of high-brow artsy stuff because of the baroque influence and because it was written for the (often English) Landlords. His stuff was revived in the sixties mostly by Sean Riarda. That continued with the Chieftains who recorded a lot of his tunes (as did Planxty & Liam O'Flynn). They are not dance tunes (although most planxties can be played as waltzes) and that is one of the reasons they are not played that much in sessions. Personally, I think that they sit best on the harp, and some of the best recordings imho are by Maire Ni Chathasaigh & Chris Newman, who must have recorded every O'Carolan tune there is. Nice, mellow stuff. Dates to the late eighties but should still be available.

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:10 pm

Right you are about the harp. O'C's music is not at its best on the whistle. Dave Auty did the quintessential Fanny Power on the whistle, so it can be done. The music challenges me on several fronts. I have to select a whistle that the tune works on. And to make it sound right it has to be perfect. I just discovered (or at least I think I did) that breath volume is more important in O'Carrolan's music...soft where appropriate, more intense in other places. I can't get it right if I just puff like I would on a jig.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:18 pm

I play mostly Carolan stuff for a couple of reasons. Mostly, I think it's beautiful, and I like the sort of nebulous region between folk music and art music. Also, I really can't at this point play jigs and reels up to tempo. I'll keep at that, but I do like that Carolan's music favors finesse over speed. I really like experimenting with the phrasing, syncopation, and myriad other things that his music invites.

Like Doc, I've spent quite a bit of time with Carolan's Draught in the last few months. I've never heard anyone play it, so it's really cool to experiment with tempo, drawing out notes, etc.

Just the tempo thing is very interesting to me. I've heard the Fairy Queen (difficult on the whistle, 2.5 octave range) done fairly upbeat, down to absolutely funeral dirge tempo. Same with Si bheag Si Mhor, Eleanor Plunkett, and tons of other pieces, manyof which he notated andante (walking tempo -- it depends on whether you think he was walking fast or slowly ):). His music really does invite all sorts of interpretations; some work for me, others don't, but those obviously appeal to somebody.

BrassBlower · Post by **BrassBlower** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:03 pm

Note that in the recent thread on obsessive playing, I mentioned O'Carolan!

The primary reason I like these tunes is that they are perfect for "reverse-engineering". In other words, it's fun and not extremely difficult to switch them to guitar (and whistle) friendly keys, like D or G, and they still sound good even when you have to modify notes to make them fit on the whistle.

Like most of you on another thread, I don't really care that much for Enya, but I feel differently about her more guitar-oriented relatives, Clannad. They do a very nice guitar/flute/whistle/harp version of "Eleanor Plunkett".

bonolo · Post by **bonolo** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:05 pm

What I've heard of O'Carolan's music is great. A bit like early music, a bit folksy. I think the intricacies are great.

I started a thread before I saw this, asking if anyone knew where I could find the sheet music to O'Carolan's "Pléaráca an Ruarcaigh" (O'Rourke's Frolics). In fact, I'd also love to find a whole book of O'Carolan sheet music. Anybody know where to find either?

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:06 pm

I like their Princess Royal aka Mrs. McDermott. The first tune I picked out on a whistle, ever. But I really I don't play much O'Carolan at all, these days.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:21 am

On 2002-10-22 19:12, Doc Jones wrote:

I'm working on Carolan's Draught right now. It's a beautiful thing.
Doc

Is Carolan's Draught the same tune as Carolan's Receipt? The title (I think) refers to a prescription his doctor gave him - basically cut back on the drinking or his liver would explode.

I have an El McMeen version of it on guitar in CGDGAD tuning that I never conquered, but that would be a beautiful tune to learn, and totally inappropriate for a session!

JMcCYoung · Post by **JMcCYoung** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:59 am

On 2002-10-23 00:05, bonolo wrote:
I started a thread before I saw this, asking if anyone knew where I could find the sheet music to O'Carolan's "Pléaráca an Ruarcaigh" (O'Rourke's Frolics). In fact, I'd also love to find a whole book of O'Carolan sheet music. Anybody know where to find either?

I can't help with the first, but what claims to be his complete works can be ordered here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0946005168/

I expect other sources would have the book too.

O'Neill's 1850 includes 20 or 30 O'Carolan tunes, as I recall.

John

BrassBlower · Post by **BrassBlower** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:24 am

O'Neill's Music of Ireland has 75.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 8:38 am

On 2002-10-22 18:57, E = Fb wrote:

Here's the odd thing. Although the music looks so easy on paper, on some tunes (Fanny Power especialy) it takes me forever to get to where I'm happy with the way I can make it sound.
Anyone else share my experience, or am I just O'Carrolan challenged?

No, you're not just O'Carolan challenged unless some of the finest celtic-style solo finger-style guitarists are. I read recently of a guitarist who claims he has worked for years to get an arrangement of some tunes that satisfies him and one guitarist had a seven string guitar specially made just so he could play one tune the way he thought was right—now that's dedication. Since guitar is as close as you can get to an old-style harp without actually playing one, O'Carolan's music has a special appeal to guitarists. I'll dredge up a reference to the guitarists I'm talking about in case someone is interested in their arrangements.

Blarney Pilgrim · Post by **Blarney Pilgrim** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:11 am

Wanna know more about O'Carolan? This is a great web site. It has a good explanation of his style of music and how it differs from Irish "folk" music.<br>
http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/index.html <br>
Steve

tomandceil · Post by **tomandceil** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:19 pm

brassblower writes
>O'Neill's Music of Ireland has 75.

I seem to recall a discussion in a folk publication (don't recall which one) back in the 80's over how many of O'Neill's 75 Carolan tunes are really by the great man himself. Goodness knows there are several in his O'Carolan section that aren't heard anywhere else or aren't identified as Carolan tunes anywhere else. (I'm talking about the complete O'Neill, not the abridged version that leaves out a lot of beautiful slow airs. The one with, I think, 1850 tunes or whatever -- I'm not at home at the moment.)