Curious about keys...

[Chiffed]

To the original questions:

Earlier is better, IMHO. Starting to use the Bb and Eb keys prevents 'flute death-grip syndrome'. Keys encourage a lighter, stress-free touch for me. And they're fun.

Weight? My boxwood 8-key weighs less than my Jon C. keyless. My most comfortable flute is a short-foot german 6-key.

[peeplj]

To the original questions:

Earlier is better, IMHO. Starting to use the Bb and Eb keys prevents 'flute death-grip syndrome'. Keys encourage a lighter, stress-free touch for me. And they're fun.

Weight? My boxwood 8-key weighs less than my Jon C. keyless. My most comfortable flute is a short-foot german 6-key.

Agreed.

If you think you're going to want keys at some point, the earlier you get them, the less trouble you'll have becoming used to them.

Keyed flutes aren't really all that heavy. My blackwood 6-key Hamilton still feels quite light and well-balanced to me. My keyless Seery is heavier; my M&E flutes are much heavier.

--James

[Samsdad]

So sorry to have ruffled your feathers rama. As a beginning flute player I practice which makes me a practitioner by at least one definition, my longevity and expertise in the medical field permits me the right to make fun of my profession. Neither of these makes me a ho. I`ve joined in with this conversation only on the humorous side since I have little experience in the area of flutes but am very interested in learning. Thanks for the lesson.

[jim stone]

I confess the idea of giving somebody picking up flute
for the first time, who will spend the first six months
trying to get a sound out of the thing, and figuring out how
to hold it, an 8-keyed Grinter, say, so they can get used
to keys, strikes me as premature. A Sweetheart, a Tipple, or
a Folk Flute might well be bewildering enough. Better ways
to begin, IMO.

Anyhow there were considerations expressed earlier
in the thread in favor of postponing keys until
more of the basics are sorted out.
Might be worth reading.

[Denny]

what about all of those poor 5th graders with Boehms?

[Bridges-PdP]

what about all of those poor 5th graders with Boehms?

I'm with Denny here. Fore go the 'irish' flute and just get a Boehm. You'll get keys (which opens up more styles of music), and more options for taking lessons if you're interested, etc. Isn't there a famous flute player or two in the ITM world that plays a Boehm?

You can pick up a decent student level or nicer midrange level immediately. If you decide you want a less metallic sound, have one of those makers of 'Irish' flutes make a new head for your Boehm.

On the other hand, most of those 5th graders are playing off-the-shelf Boehm flutes because they 'are' poor. And probably 90% of them won't be playing flute at all by the time your keyed Irish flute is ready.

Get a flute. Almost any flute. Play it.

[jemtheflute]

My two-penn'orth (if that!), on a sub-element of this thread first.... I haven't done any looking-up on this, but my understanding has always been that "Flautist" is modern standard British English for a flute player, regardless of his/her instrument type or musical genre. (Yes, its an Italian derived mixed form based on the fairly standard use of Italian as the main language of musical notation - so?) Usage has made it the norm, regardless of etymology. "Flutist" or possibly "Fluter" is the American English normal usage, whether in Classical professional circles or otherwise. I sometimes describe myself as a "flute player", sometimes as a "flautist" - not because I have any Classical training or pretensions, simply because that is the normal word over here, value-UNladen. Not being American, I wouldn't use "Flutist" (subjectively, it sounds odd and awkward to me because it ain't what I was drug up with) but I don't mind if that's what is preferred over the pond. Nor would I take umbrage at being referred to by either term.
BTW, a "luthier" (French word, pronounced as such!) MAKES.......violins, cellos, guitars, hurdy-gurdies, whatever, even lutes: he/she may or may not play what he/she makes. A lute player, at least in British English, is a "Lutenist".

On the main drift of this thread, I greatly respect the many fine players who play keyless or who eschew the use of any keys they may have, but for myself, I prefer to have 'em and to teach with them from the start. It is far easier to cope with all the issues previously pointed out to do with grip etc. and also the big one of learning good/useful habits and not having to unlearn bad/unhelpful ones, if you start with the main weapon. I also respect musically some great players who use pipers' grip, rest the flute head on their shoulder, use a side-aperture embouchure, half-hole with stunning facility..... but I wouldn't teach any of those things to a beginner because in general they are harder/disadvantageous. If one later arrives at them as deliberate choices based on experience and personal experimentation to find one's own optimum, OK, but only if....

Keys are NOT an untoward, redundant complication for a beginner UNLESS he/she is taught to think that! So if you think you'd ever like to use 'em, have keys from the start, even if it means, say, buying a relatively cheap but serviceable older instrument to begin with, like one of the German ones so often derided, but not always fairly. Some ARE rubbish, but not all. Oh yes, regarding which keys to get? Get the lot - no point in half-measures - just more frustrations and more to re-learn later if you go that way. I say again, if you're a beginner and can't afford/wait for a fully keyed flute from a good modern maker, with the appropriate advice you should be able to get a perfectly serviceable (and probably quite well in tune) German late C19th 8-key for less than you'll pay for a Seery keyless. It won't honk at the bottom end like the Seery, but it will train you well while you save up for a Wilkes or a Grinter or a Hammy or whoever......

I like playing tunes in A min and D min on my 8-key, and know quite a few tunes in other key-demanding keys. (I detest half-holing, and try to avoid it even on whistle, cross fingering where possible for accidentals.) I use both long and short F as each one falls most usefully in a particular sequence of fingerings, and I normally vent one of them for F#, especially if sustained. I use both my C nat key and the cross-fingering (oxo xxx), again as they fit best, and usually vent the C nat for C#. Having originally started on Boehm, I fairly routinely vent my Eb, though not with full Classical discipline. I use the low C# and C too if a tune demands them (e.g. many of those great D min reels). Personally I would advocate ALL flutes, including ones specially designed for ITM, having the Eb key and ALL players learning to vent it routinely - an easy habit if acquired from the start, and a real aid to intonation generally and to the strength of that problematic low E, as well as to balancing the instrument. I've also never really seen the point in NOT having the foot joint keys if you are having a full length footjoint - those dead holes just look daft.

I also don't relate very well - and I realise this is very much a subjective, personal opinion - to the fuss about weight etc. I can't see that the relatively small differences should have a significant practical effect for the vast majority of players. My main flute is a Rudall & Rose Patent Head, with its headjoint full of solid brass. Its balance pivot point is between the 1st and 2nd finger holes, pretty much where the L1 1st knuckle supports it. I do notice that plain headed flutes are lighter, but it just isn't a problem of any kind. People who try it sometimes say things like "Don't you find it hard to hold up?" or "Doesn't it tip you over?", but no, I don't/it doesn't. Likewise, when I play my Viennese-style-but-Italian-made Rampone with its extra keys and low B, or a keyless, or a boxwood Baroque style flute, I notice the balance is different, but so what? One of the (I think - I haven't weighed them to see) heaviest seeming flutes I have ever played is a keyless Delrin Seery.

Ho hum....
Happy tootling![/i]

[jim stone]

what about all of those poor 5th graders with Boehms?

I don't believe I need to spell out to people who play
simple system flutes, why this is a disanalogy.

[cocusflute]

Maybe you could explain "disanalogy."
You don't mean, do you, that consciousness supervenes on the physical to validate the materialist view that all mental properties, including conscious phenomenal ones, derive from underlying physical structure? Or that no two beings with the same underlying physical causal structure and organization could differ in any mental property (leaving aside all the qualifications and nuances that would have to be built in to accommodate the "wide" or contextual dimension of mental states and their contents)?
We're simple folk here. What do you mean?

[Denny]

shucks

I just thought that he was sayin' the Boehms ain't even proper flutes...

.................................................................

I was glad that he didn't mention that there are only 6 keys on the Boehm equvalent to a 8 key classical flute (ignoring the 3 trill keys)

[jim stone]

Maybe you could explain "disanalogy."
You don't mean, do you, that consciousness supervenes on the physical to validate the materialist view that all mental properties, including conscious phenomenal ones, derive from underlying physical structure? Or that no two beings with the same underlying physical causal structure and organization could differ in any mental property (leaving aside all the qualifications and nuances that would have to be built in to accommodate the "wide" or contextual dimension of mental states and their contents)?
We're simple folk here. What do you mean?

My God that's beautiful! I believe it, yes!
who are you quoting?

The analogy is to aesthetics. put simply,
you can't have two paintings standing side by side, the only difference between them being that one is beautiful and the other ugly. There has to be some other difference between them, for instance, a difference in composition or color. this is expressed "aesthetic properties supervene
on non-aesthetic properties."

the claim in your quotation is that you can't have two
physical systems standing side-by-side, the only difference
between them being that one is in pain, say, but the other is not.
a mental difference requires a physical difference. The mental supervenes on the physical. This is indeed a tenet
of contemporary materialism.

don't mean to explain what you already probably understand. lovely, thanks.

[jim stone]

shucks

I just thought that he was sayin' the Boehms ain't even proper flutes...

.................................................................

I was glad that he didn't mention that there are only 6 keys on the Boehm equvalent to a 8 key classical flute (ignoring the 3 trill keys)

Sorry, Denny. Working too hard.

[Gordon]

IMO, keys are not necessary to play ITM, and probably not all that important in the big picture (check out how many of the All-Ireland winners or otherwise famous folk on our Youtube thread are not playing with, or using - if they have them - keys). But, that said, a player will probably want them, sooner or later.

The major issue for key hesitation is usually financial; most of us can't afford a top quality six key. If all of us could, this entire thread would be silly -- most of us would own one (or five), whether we used the keys or not.

But, here's my two cents, and an applicable anecdote complete with advice: If you're ordering a new flute, order keys NOW. I bought my first quality keyless some six years ago -- couldn't even imagine ordering keys at the time, financially speaking. After all, the keyless Hammy was all I thought I needed for gigs, anyway. In a pinch, I figured that I had my trusty German with keys, and a Boehm to boot (not literally!) if I needed it. So I was set, right?

Nope. I still have the German, and for almost perverse reasons, I still like it. But it's tuning and volume are so inferior to the Hammy that - while I play it privately - I really don't like to play it pub-licly. Which means that, sooner or later, I'll need to get myself a quality keyed flute.
But, in the six years since I made that particular call, the prices of flutes have skyrocketed. Had I put in an order for keys then, I'd have my lovely Hammy with keys now. As it is, I will have to get an entirely new flute with keys if I want them, rather than simply having my primary, beloved, flute with keys to play.

Gordon

[Gabriel]

I had a keyless flute for two years and just got an eight-keyed one five weeks ago. I don't know how I could play without keys for two years to be honest...I find myself using the low C/C# keys, the Fnat's and especially the Cnat key all the time. Bb and G# are also handy for groovy accidentals or jazz improvisation. I like them big time.

Of course one doesn't NEED to have keys to play ITM. But they're handy to have, so if you can afford them and are willing to do it, go for it. It took me two years to save for my new flute, and it was worth it.

...and they prevent the flute from rolling off the table of course.

[jim stone]

Doesn't hammy retrofit?