Uilleann Pipes and Guitar

[Baglady]

I was at an intimate little house concert last night and had some thoughts I’ve had for a while confirmed.

PLEASE microphone the drones and lose the guitar.

Those of you that know me will find this ironic because I am a backup guitarist at the Irish sessions I go to. I have come to realize that the Guitar is to Fiddles and other non-drone instruments as the drones are to pipes, a harmonic accompaniment. So with droned instruments string accompaniment becomes entirely redundant.

I’m sorry my fellow Guitarists but you lose the subtleties of the drones and regs and the harmonic colorations of the chanter in the unforgiving chords of a stringed instrument. I also apologize to you my fellow pipers because you are going to have to learn to tune your drones.

[TnWhistler]

I love guitar in Irish music, but when we saw Paddy Keenan and John Walsh recently, the guitar was so loud, you could not hear the regulators nor the drones really. We were even on the front row just a few feet from the pipes. The guitar should compliment the pipes. John is an EXCELLENT guitar player too, but the sound man never seemed to get it after numerous complaints. I even told Paddy we couldn't hear him properly and he spoke to the man as did his road manager. To no avail.

Evidently the sound man felt it was a duo rather than a featured instrument and his accompanist. Even the guitar player in our band, who had gone with us, was frustrated.

I and everyone else went to the concert to hear Paddy, no offense to John, but he was too loud, and we couldn't make anyone understand.

Timmy

[MikeyLikesIt]

I appreciate quitar in its own right, but Irish music was never really meant to have Western-style harmonic accompaniment. I have heard plaenty of music, be it concerts or sessions, where the "chordal" instruments overwhelm the melody instruments and, honestly, ruin the music. But wait! Our regs provide sustained harmony as well! If Irish music wasn't supposed to have harmonic accompaniment, then what's up with the regs? As far as regulators go, I have heard the opinion that I whole heartedly agree with that while they do provide harmony, it is not Western tonal harmony ( the chords have no function pushing the melody to cadence) and they also serve as rhythmic accompaniment.

[KevinCorkery]

I also saw Paddy in Silver Spring MD. and he had the same problem for half of the show, the guitarist overwhelming the pipes. After intermission it got better but I would certainly prefer to hear Paddy solo. Its frustrating to see him hitting the regs and not hear them. Ahh, also there was the lone loud drunk at the bar who was oblivious to the concert and was arguing some inane point to his two buddies. Anyhow, if there was no accompaniement the sound man may actually listen to how the pipes, drones and all sound and make it more enjoyable for the rest of us, afterall its Paddy everyone there came to see. Bitch, bitch, bitch!

[gallant_murray]

So with droned instruments string accompaniment becomes entirely redundant.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ucE72xpvT7Q

Sounds pretty good to me. Though I admit the drones can hardly be heard. I like guitar in ITM, but I like bouzouki better because the accompaniment is more subtle.

[Baglady]

I don't want this to drift into a Guitar in ITM discussion. I am being very specific here with droned instruments in concert. I enjoyed another concert last night of several sets of pipes unaccompanied and I have to say, they do the job.

If anything I am solidifying the Guitars place in ITM because it brings the tradition back to the drone base that it evolved from. Guitars in sessions and with undroned instruments to get that foundation but if you have a full set, use it.

[PJ]

I think that the combination of guitar and pipes is hard to beat. However, when the guitar is providing accompaniment, the drones and regulators shouldn't be used, unless the guitarist really knows what he/she is doing (and the piper too!!).

As to the best accompaniment among the stringed instruments, I prefer a 10 string cittern to a bouzouki or a regular guitar because of the extra bass. However, a 12 string guitar tuned DADGAD beats all!!

[MikeyLikesIt]

I think that the combination of guitar and pipes is hard to beat.

I humbly disagree. Most any melody instrument used in Irish folk music paired with the pipes is far more agrreable than guitar. When one of the instruments is forced to be unable to play a significant part of their instrument because of the other, something is wrong.

Baglady, I apoligize if I digressed from the topic too much, bu I feel this brings up an important dicussion. Irish music, from what I've read, was originally and traditionally monophonic and predates the introduction of the drone for harmonic accompaniment. Though I agree, I kinda have to as I'm a piper and love them drones and regs, that subtle and tasteful harmony suites the music well.

The drone is supposed to be the accompaniment in the case of the pipes and the design of the pipes is such that no other harmonic accompaniment is neccesary.

Just my 2 cents, and I acknowledge that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Cheers,
Mike

[PJ]

... no other harmonic accompaniment is neccesary.

It may not be necessary, but it sounds good, to me at any rate.

Edited to add photo:

[CHasR]

from a purely musical standpoint
(not getting invloved in what's acceptable/unacceptable in ITM)
Plucked string timbres make for a strong contrast to reed timbres;
the initial attack and decay of a plucked string is much more dramatic than that of a (non-tounged) reed-pipe. (looks kinda like a mountainside on a scope trace)
Even the crispest staccato of a UP or NSP still will show less of a radical waveform than the wimpiest harpsichord. (it looks a lot 'squarer')
In the hands of skilled players, there are plenty of similarities:
BOTH instruments can play staccato, provide rhythmic/ harmonic accompianment against a melody singlehandedly, play melody /drone texture,
Fretted string instruments can do two things the Uillean pipes cannot:
1.) Dynamics.
2.) Realize several truly independent contrapuntal voices.
& by these two aspects alone, I find the pairing musically and aesthetically fullfilling.

[wgority]

Whether or not it's necessary is open to debate. The guitar's, like most other instruments, value comes from the hands of the person playing it. Its place in ITM varies with the ability of the person using it.

I recall many years ago hearing the late Tony Cuffe playing with Paddy Keenan at North Hero and being very impressed. He also performed with Jerry O'Sullivan in The Windbags and knew how to add to the pipes. The same level of admiration holds true every time I hear a new recording from Patrick Street with Ged Foley playing guitar (even though they don't have pipes). These 2 musicians augment what is being done by the other musicians and used their guitars to weave with and around the others. There is no distraction or detraction.

On the other hand, I've heard instances where guitarists have done nothing but interfere. They have no grasp of the tune or the flow of the melody and are a genuine nuisance. (To be contrary and get everyone fired up I'd say they're much like bodhranistas in that regard). I've seen way too many sessions bolloxed up by ham-handed guitarists.

[Nanohedron]

I was at an intimate little house concert last night and had some thoughts I’ve had for a while confirmed.

PLEASE microphone the drones and lose the guitar.

Yeah, I was at the same concert. FWIW, I didn't have a problem hearing the drones at all, but then I've been suspecting for quite a while that I'm not as deaf as I thought. Judging by my experience, a lot of people apparently have a hard time hearing what poses no problem for me when it comes to a mix of elements (so far, fingers crossed), so you may have a point about amplifying the drones. Me, I can't say that it wouldn't have been too much; for my money the chanter/drone balance was pretty good as it was. Might have been our different vantage points. I have vowed to listen from the "gallery" next time, so we shall see.

As for the guitar, it wouldn't have hurt having less volume, maybe, but how much more quietly I can't say as I thought he was playing pretty quietly already and with restraint. He's never been a "whanger".

Those of you that know me will find this ironic because I am a backup guitarist at the Irish sessions I go to. I have come to realize that the Guitar is to Fiddles and other non-drone instruments as the drones are to pipes, a harmonic accompaniment. So with droned instruments string accompaniment becomes entirely redundant.

Arguably so, but it's not as if the piper in question had the accompaniment forced on him, nor can he be accused of being clueless. He's performed with his choice of backup before, so it occurs to me that he must have had an aesthetic concept he wanted to pursue, and there's nothing invalid in that. Redundant, maybe, but purposeless: not necessarily. Solo unaccompanied piping: there's nothing to beat it. But when there's backup, why, there it is. In that case style and approach count as there's no backing out of it. Of course, it's a rare approach that works for every listener, but I say a good try at it can be, if it must be, done. A light touch works, I think, and a spare one.

I’m sorry my fellow Guitarists but you lose the subtleties of the drones and regs and the harmonic colorations of the chanter in the unforgiving chords of a stringed instrument.

This is a blanket statement that I think you would have a hard time proving for each and every backup/piping combo. As in all things, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly. The rest is personal taste and inclination.

I also apologize to you my fellow pipers because you are going to have to learn to tune your drones.

There is that.

[pureshift]

Unfortunately a lot of sound guys are too used to setting things up for rock/pop groups. Being an audio engineer myself, I've been to a number of shows where things are not balanced properly and it can ruin an otherwise good show. In my opinion I think an accompanying guitar can work as long as it's mixed properly so that it's a bit more behind the pipes.

[Nanohedron]

Guitars in sessions and with undroned instruments to get that foundation...

I realise you don't want this thread to drift into a backup/ITM discussion, but you yourself have opened the door.

You and I differ greatly here. I say the foundation is already there: the tune itself. To my thinking, good backup supports itself upon this foundation, or framework if you will, and provides the illusion of being the foundation. My personal opinion is that backup players should approach their craft in this way rather than operating under the presumption that their function is that of a foundation in fact.

The tune is the foundation. Sensitive accompaniment takes its cues from everything inherent in a melody and offers only context from the sidelines, nothing more. This, then, presupposes a strong familiarity with the tune. Without that, any context provided by backup runs the risk of being merely incidental if it isn't downright off. Whenever I have the temerity to do backup for a tune I don't know, I count myself lucky if I don't fall flat on my arse. So as for being analogous to the drone, I can't agree unless one only does exactly that with very little variance. Change chords, and the drone's out the window.

(edited for a little fine-tuning and spelling)

[MikeyLikesIt]

Guitars in sessions and with undroned instruments to get that foundation...

I realise you don't want this thread to drift into a backup/ITM discussion, but you yourself have opened the door.

You and I differ greatly here. I say the foundation is already there: the tune itself. To my thinking, good backup supports itself upon this foundation, or framework if you will, and provides the illusion of being the foundation. My personal opinion is that backup players should approach their craft in this way rather than operating under the presumption that their function is that of a foundation in fact.

The tune is the foundation. Sensitive accompaniment takes its cues from everything inherent in a melody and offers only context, nothing more. This, then, presupposes a strong familiarity with the tune. Without that, any context provided by backup runs the risk of being merey incidental if it isn't downright off. Whenever I have the temerity to do backup for a tune I don't know, I count myself lucky if I don't fall flat on my arse. So as for being analogous to the drone, I can't agree unless one only does exactly that with very little variance. Change chords, and the drone's out the window.

I agree with this. Maybe I worded my argument wrong or argued the wrong thing for this topic. Since I've been playing solo instruments my whole life and have never really worked with other people, I havea bias sentiment that accompaniment isn't necessary.