Singer/Songwriters

[dubhlinn]

I think meself that once ye get past Dylan, Waits, Taylor, Guthrie and Gershwin there is not a lot left to talk about.

Slan,
D.

Woody or Arlo???

"I don't want a pickle
I just want to ride my motorcycle"

.well you of all people should know that the Apple never falls far from the tree

Slan,
D.

[chas]

I think a lot of people in the "great vocalists" threads are not getting the distinction--that of a great vocalist and a great singer-songwriter. A lot of people listed I think are great singer-songewriters, but not particularly great vocalists. You can be one without being the other, of course, and you can be both at the same time.

I'm not trying to be snarky but I don't understand what you mean here (and I mean that sincerely...I didn't on the other thread either). A great vocalist is in the "ear" of the "hearer" . I know many people who wouldn't be fond of Janis Joplin's voice at all, but I for one think she's amazing. Unless I missed something on that thread that was implying that just because someone writes well, they are automatically a great vocalist? Just trying to understand your point here, Cranberry

And of course I must mention Sinéad O'Connor, who is both a great vocalist and a great singer-songwriter, in my humble opinion. She is best known for singing a cover (Nothing Compares 2 U), but her own songwriting can be absolutely pristine.

Didn't Prince actually write that one for her?

There are some objective criteria for singing, such as ability to sing in pitch, range of pitch, power and projection, volume and control. The ability to sing live, especially acapella and still hold an audience is a more subjective criteria, but a good one. A lot of names listed on the other threads would do poorly in such a test. They may be good songwriters, and entertainers, but they are not top vocalists.

If someone with a good ear was scoring on a scale of 1 to 10 on the objective measures of pitch, range, volume, control, many of the names mentioned would be middle of the pack. A top vocalist would rate top scores in all of these. The quality of tone is more subjective, but after being able to sing in key, and range, it is what most folks focus on. A lot of folks probably have an average ear and can't tell if someone is on key unless they are way off. However, range, projection, and control usually do exhibit themselves if the person has it in them.

I would say you're talking about someone with a good voice, not necessarily a good singer. Someone can hit every single note spot on yet sing with no feeling. It's the same with any sort of musician -- you can key Dvorak's cello concerto into a MIDI player, and what comes out will be perfect but it will still suck. Similarly there are loads of people out there with good voices, good ranges, perfect pitch, and they still can't relate a song worth crap.

Several people in the other thread (well at least two or three) listed Tom Waits as a great singer. I was one of them. He regularly brings tears to my eyes. It's not just his songs, as I've heard other people sing them without the same effect -- it's the way he sings.

So some of my votes for singer-songwriters:

I'd probably put Joni Mitchell and Phil Ochs at the top. Also, Tom Waits, Janis Ian. A couple better known for their songs than their singing, but whose records I love are Laura Nyro and Carole King. (Note that when someone, probably VH1, had a list of the 100 most influential women in music, something like 80 of them had recorded songs by Carole King.)

Since people are posting songs, here's one of my favorites of Phil's:

And the ship sets the sail
They've lived the tale
To carry to the shore
Straining at the oars
Or staring from the rail
And the sea bids farewell
She waves in swells
And sends them on their way
Time has been her pay
And time will have to tell
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

And the anchor hits the sand
The hungry hands
Have tied them to the port
The hour will be short
For leisure on the land
And the girls scent the air
They seem so fair
With paint on their face
Soft is their embrace
To lead them up the stairs
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

In the room dark and dim
Touch of skin
He asks her of her name
She answers with no shame
And not a sense of sin
Until the fingers draw the blinds
Sip of wine
The cigarette of doubt
The candle is blown out
The darkness is so kind
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

And the shadows frame the light
Same old sight
Thrill has blown away
Now all alone they lay
Two strangers in the night
Till his heart skips a beat
He's on his feet
To shipmates he must join
She's counting up the coins
He's swallowed by the street
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

In the bar hangs a cloud
The whiskey's loud
There's laughter in their eyes
The lonely in disguse
Are clinging to the crowd
And the bottle fills the glass
The haze is fast
He's trembling for the taste
Of passion gone to waste
In memories of the past
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

In the alley, red with rain
Cry of pain
For love was but a smile
Teasing all the while
Now dancing down the drain
'till the boys reach the dock
They gently mock
Lift him on their backs
Lay him on his rack
And leave beneath the light
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

And the ship sets the sail
They've lived the tale
To carry from the shore
Straining at the oars
Or staring from the rail
And the sea bids farewell
She waves in swells
And sends them on their way
Time has been her pay
And time will have to tell
Soon your sailing will be over
Come and take the pleasures of the harbor

[BillChin]

I would say you're talking about someone with a good voice, not necessarily a good singer. Someone can hit every single note spot on yet sing with no feeling. It's the same with any sort of musician -- you can key Dvorak's cello concerto into a MIDI player, and what comes out will be perfect but it will still suck. Similarly there are loads of people out there with good voices, good ranges, perfect pitch, and they still can't relate a song worth crap.

Thank you for that much needed clarification. A top vocalist must be able to add their personality, make a song sound original, and sing with emotion, and evoke emotion, to be a great vocalist.

That said, I stick to the obvious point that a person that struggles to sing on key, and doesn't have much range, is out of the discussion for top vocalist. Top singer, perhaps, top entertainer, definitely. Again, a good subjective test is can the person sing a difficult song acapella, and hold an audience that doesn't know of their reputation and their work.

Some names mentioned in the other two lists would do poorly on that kind of acapella test, some would fail miserably. Their names got on the other list because people are answering a different question. They are responding with their favorite singer, favorite songwriter or favorite entertainer, and that is fine. It is nit-picky, however, there is a distinction. I have stayed away from responding in those threads in this fashion, because that would be rude.

This thread is purposeful in drawing that distinction.

[dfernandez77]

And of course I must mention Sinéad O'Connor, who is both a great vocalist and a great singer-songwriter, in my humble opinion. She is best known for singing a cover (Nothing Compares 2 U), but her own songwriting can be absolutely pristine.

Didn't Prince actually write that one for her?

No, Prince recorded it himself in the 80's, but it didn't go anywhere until Sinead covered it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Compares_2_U

I like Prince's version better.

[dfernandez77]

That said, I stick to the obvious point that a person that struggles to sing on key, and doesn't have much range, is out of the discussion for top vocalist. Top singer, perhaps, top entertainer, definitely. Again, a good subjective test is can the person sing a difficult song acapella, and hold an audience that doesn't know of their reputation and their work.

But the interpretation of the obvious point is not the same for everyone. You are talking about someone that appeals to the broadest audience - a Bolton, Yanni, Dione clone. Music evolves and is made alive at the fringes.

Tom Waits is an example. There are people that just don't get Waits and hate his vocal style. And there are people who think the lyrics are amazing and that he is the best vocalist for his music. Personally I think the only better vocalist for Tom Waits music than Tom Waits is John Hammond, because John Hammond can growl with more expression?

I'd agree with izzarina that "A great vocalist is in the "ear" of the "hearer"." Similarly, a great songwriter has a lot to do with the aesthetic taste of the listener. Oingo Boingo (Danny Elfman) wrote some great satirical lyrics when the band was young and I could go see them at a warehouse on the Del Mar Fairgrounds.

My 17 year old son is listening to Queen now Night at the Opera to be specific. There's some amazing songwriting - but would everyone agree?

Today my vote for best collaborative singing/songwriting goes to Oingo Boingo and Queen.

[BillChin]

Let me add one more clarification. To me, vocalist, implies using the voice as an instrument. Like a cello player, a person must master the basics of hitting proper notes, being able to play up and down more than a basic range to be considered a great player.

For performers, entertainers, anything goes, and likes and dislikes are fine. Perhaps it is a semantic distinction and some folks seem to have an opposite meaning in their mind, that a singer must have the ability to hit basic notes, and a vocalist is more in line of what I see as a performer.

Oh well, rule number one is that no one ever wins an argument on the Internet.

[dfernandez77]

Oh well, rule number one is that no one ever wins an argument on the Internet.

Isn't that true.

If I had been meaning to argue I would not have voted for Queen and Oingo Boingo.

It's only my opinion.

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

Hmm...Well, I'm a big Elvis Costello fan. Other great singer/songwriters I might include would be Joni Mitchell, Arto Lindsay, Bob Dylan, Caetano Veloso, João Gilberto, David Byrne, and the great songwriting partnerships of the 20th century: Lennon & McCartney, Strummer & Jones, and Robert Forster & Grant McLennan (a.k.a. "The Go-Betweens").

At the moment, my favorite new singer/songwriter is ex-Pulp frontman Jarvis Cocker. Here are the lyrics to his recent song "Quantum Theory" which was featured in the closing credits of the acclaimed film Children of Men. It's got quite a catchy little chorus. If you feel like singing along, there's a singalong video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_M22STINYw

Well did you hear, there's a natural order?
Those most deserving will end up with the most?
That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top,

Well I say,... “sh*t floats”.

If you thought things had changed,
Friend, you'd better think again,
Bluntly put, in the fewest of words:

Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Now the working classes are obsolete,
They are surplus to society's needs,
So let 'em all kill each other,
And get it made overseas.
That's the word, don't you know,
From the guys that's running the show,
Lets be perfectly clear boys and girls,

Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Oh feed your children on crayfish and lobster tails,
Find a school near the top of the league,
In theory I respect your right to exist,
I will kill you if you move in next to me,

Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust,
Oh but the takings are up by a third,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.
(Cunts are still running the world)
(Cunts are still running the world)

The free market is perfectly natural,
Do you think that I'm some kind of dummy?
It's the ideal way to order the world;
“F**k the morals, does it make any money?”

And if you don't like it? Then leave.
Or use your right to protest on the street,
Yeah, use your right but don't imagine that it's heard,


Not whilst cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,

Cunts are still running... the world.

[dubhlinn]

Hmm...Well, I'm a big Elvis Costello fan. Other great singer/songwriters I might include would be Joni Mitchell, Arto Lindsay, Bob Dylan, Caetano Veloso, João Gilberto, David Byrne, and the great songwriting partnerships of the 20th century: Lennon & McCartney, Strummer & Jones, and Robert Forster & Grant McLennan (a.k.a. "The Go-Betweens").

At the moment, my favorite new singer/songwriter is ex-Pulp frontman Jarvis Cocker. Here are the lyrics to his recent song "Quantum Theory" which was featured in the closing credits of the acclaimed film Children of Men. It's got quite a catchy little chorus. If you feel like singing along, there's a singalong video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_M22STINYw

Well did you hear, there's a natural order?
Those most deserving will end up with the most?
That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top,

Well I say,... “sh*t floats”.

If you thought things had changed,
Friend, you'd better think again,
Bluntly put, in the fewest of words:

Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Now the working classes are obsolete,
They are surplus to society's needs,
So let 'em all kill each other,
And get it made overseas.
That's the word, don't you know,
From the guys that's running the show,
Lets be perfectly clear boys and girls,

Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.

Oh feed your children on crayfish and lobster tails,
Find a school near the top of the league,
In theory I respect your right to exist,
I will kill you if you move in next to me,

Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust,
Oh but the takings are up by a third,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.
(Cunts are still running the world)
(Cunts are still running the world)

The free market is perfectly natural,
Do you think that I'm some kind of dummy?
It's the ideal way to order the world;
“x the morals, does it make any money?”

And if you don't like it? Then leave.
Or use your right to protest on the street,
Yeah, use your right but don't imagine that it's heard,


Not whilst cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,

Cunts are still running... the world.

Well know.


a frightfully delightfull song

I am assuming here that the (bleep) C word is something that should be ignored..apart from those who have never been anywhere near dere...

Slan,
D.

[izzarina]

And of course I must mention Sinéad O'Connor, who is both a great vocalist and a great singer-songwriter, in my humble opinion. She is best known for singing a cover (Nothing Compares 2 U), but her own songwriting can be absolutely pristine.

Didn't Prince actually write that one for her?

No, Prince recorded it himself in the 80's, but it didn't go anywhere until Sinead covered it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Compares_2_U

Ahhh...see, I didn't know that. Well, maybe somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I did, but it had been long forgotten if that be the case. Thanks

[Jack]

Didn't Prince actually write that one for her?

No, Prince recorded it himself in the 80's, but it didn't go anywhere until Sinead covered it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Compares_2_U

Ahhh...see, I didn't know that. Well, maybe somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I did, but it had been long forgotten if that be the case. Thanks

This is one of my favorite songs which Sinéad herself wrote. It's called No Man's Woman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCyKEKi4fP4

I remember once a few years ago when she was on The View (a popular American women's talk show) and she was criticized for the song and video, by people who said it was anti-man. She responded "Look at Lenny Kravitz' 'American Woman' (which was also popular at the time) and tell me that's not anti-woman." I really love her songwriting.

In the video, you can actually see something rare--Sinéad O'Connor with hair! It only lasts a little while, though.

With a head full of hair, she really looks like a different person.

I don't wanna be no man's woman
It don't make me happy this mantrolling
thing that you got for me so I become
no man's woman

I don't wanna be no man's woman
I've other work I want to get done
I haven't travelled this far to become
no man's woman

Cuz I'm tired of it
and I'm so scared of it
that I'll never trust again
cuz a man can fake you
take your soul and make you
miserable in so much pain

My friends think I'm alone but I've got secrets
I don't tell everything about the love I get
I got a lovin' man but he's a spirit

He never does me harm never treats me bad
He'd never takes away all the love he has
and I'm forgiven oh a million times

I'm never tired of it
and I'm not scared of it
cuz it doesn't cause me pain
Like a man can fake you
take your soul and make you
never be yourself again

[cowtime]

Interesting, few could pull off the no-hair look, but she can. Strange sentiment, that song.... not sure about that....

[Jack]

I know that appearances don't make the musician, but I think I like her better with no (or very short) hair. It just seems kind of weird to see her with long hair in the video, although it's probably just because I'm accustomed to less hair. She still sounds the same.

[carrie]

Steve Earle has written some mighty fine songs--the kind that have cowtime's idea of truth in them, it seems to me.

carrie

[jbarter]

Leonard Cohen