Curious about keys...

[jim stone]

I mean that you can play ITM quite happily for the rest of
your life on an unkeyed flute, without missing them.
Including performing. Just saw Mike Rafferty do precisely
that on an unkeyed Olwell. Have talked to excellent
flautists who say the same thing. Ergo you don't need
keys to play ITM.

What a sweeping generalisation! I for one could not play happily ITM for the rest of my life on an unkeyed flute. In fact I missed keys right from a start, because I could not play certain tunes I found in tunebooks, I had to ignore a lot of tunes for a long time (more than 15 years) because I had no keyed flute. Now I can explore these, and it is a great discovery!

If you restrict your ITM playing to jigs and reels, and ignore the odd jig or reel not in D or G, if you don't accompany singers, if you don't play with fiddle players, then perhaps you can be happy in your flute imposed restriction of ITM.

But if you care for ITM, and even if you only cared for ITM and not care for any other tradition or early or classical music, then for your flute playing you should consider using keys, if you have the opportunity. It will make ITM the richer.

No, not a sweeping generalization. I don't mean that everybody
will be happy indefinitely without keys. I understand that you
missed them from the first. I meant that it's possible to
play happily without keys for the rest of one's life,
and go deeply into the music, and become a super
flautist. That's true, of course.

Of course you're right that keys are helpful and may
open things up, but there are people playing unkeyed
flutes who are deeper into this music than any of
us will ever go.

Consider the integrity of the best makers. They're selling
at a high price keyless flutes for ITM. They would not
do this if these flutes were significantly deficient at
playing the music they're meant for. Ergo
you don't need keys to play ITM.

We are now cycling around permutations of 'half-full/
half'empty.' We all agree about the particulars.

I submit that one doesn't need keys to play
ITM on an Irish flute--they can be helpful, of course,
and nice to have, and there may be some things,
though they're rare, one can't do without them.
There's nothing really here to argue about.

[Tweeto]

I'm a flute flauting flautist floosie, and proud of it!

Are you sure that you don't need to use a restroom?

[Samsdad]

I will have to agree with Mr. Stone and his analogy of a beginner opposed to one with experience. I purchased my first flute only one month ago and I`m struggling to get my fingers in the correct position and not loose the angle on the mouth hole. I`ve played the whistle for several years so I`m not a total noobie but it is frustrating.I have a beautiful generic German 6 key from about 1900. It sounds wonderful.... on certain notes but I`m looking for an inexpensive keyless Irish flute to reassure me of my meager skills.
And my thoughts on the Flautist vs flutist were mentioned earlier but are the same as Lawyer vs Attorney.... I can afford a lawyer.

[hans]

Here I think you would be wise to speak for yourself. The overall increase
in weight can make a difference to some people, myself these days,
for example.

I only stated my own opinion of course, and quite explicitely:

Depends how one would define "significant" here. I would say:...

What you call significant may not be what I call significant, hence "depends on how one would define" it. To put some meat to the bone I added actual weight figures as an example, which may aid roj in his evaluation.

Re: flautist/flutist/fluter/flute player
I don't really care much whatever term is used. But there is no need to ridicule the term "flautist". Its just a convention more often used by classical players.

Keys and blocks can be positively unhelpful. People new to the flute
have written to the board that they're sorry they have
keys--they're not using them and they're getting in the way.
They may also stop you from experimenting to find the
grip that's right for you. For instance suppose you've
paid 3000 for your keyed flute and you find you need
to use piper's grip. Now you are colliding with the blocks.
Something to be said for postponing keys for a couple
of years while all this is sorted out.

This is very sad. Why order such an expensive instrument if you are not sure that it fits for you? I recommend asking the flute maker for sending a keyed instrument to try out first. You may be surprised how many changes you would like. But you really should know before ordering any flute if you need to use piper's grip or not. And it does not need two years to find this out. Just try a friend's flute for a day, to get a feel for the necessary stretch.

It may also be the other way round: A player starts on a keyless and gets used to pipers grip, perhaps from playing the low whistle, and never tried anything different. Then acquiring a keyed flute he may be surprised that piper's grip does not work so well any longer. I mean you can develop habits on a keyless flute which are not helping you on a keyed flute. In which case a keyed flute from the start may impose better discipline.

[rama]

you're all a bunch of flute ho's and i'z da pimp. forget this flautist tag right now and get back to work.

[Ro3b]

IMHO if you have the financial means, you should put your downpayment down and get on your preferred flutemaker's waiting list for a keyed flute asap. Why limit yourself? But do play the hell out of your keyless one in the meantime.

[roj]

Great thread, ya'll. I truly appreciate everyone's thoughts.

I would have to say, based on all of the opinions above, that I probably will want to stay keyless for a while. (Unless a screaming deal arises.)

But, allow me to redirect the question. There is a selection to be made regarding the number of keys. Other than the single Eb key, and taking $$$ into consideration, how does one decide between 4, 5, 6, or 8 keys?

[sturob]

First, I have to say that I came to flute from the pipes and I've never had trouble playing a keyed flute with piper's grip. That said, I think I changed the grip on the top hand because my wrists won't do the contortions necessary to play "orthodox" piper's grip on the top hand. But pinblocks on many keyed instruments (Real R&R, Byrne, Olwell, Wilkes . . . both Gallaghers . . . Cotter, to name a few) have never gotten in the way of my grip.

I think all the keys are useful except long Fnat. Long Fnat, what's up with that? Probably because pipe chanters don't have it, and I've never heard a piper say, "Man, I wish this chanter had that ultra-useful long Fnat that flute players are always so jazzed about." I never use it, and I can go from above Fnat to Fnat and from below Fnat to Fnat using just the short one.

Now see, both paragraphs are really controversial. Some people are going to say that I'm some kind of marooooooon, that there's no way I play piper's with pinblocks. Also, I think more fluters think long Fnat is more useful.

I guess I just wanted to give a dissenting opinion AND to point out how important it is to try these things out. And yeah, it's a tough problem if you're trying to make all these decisions before you learn how to play the instrument.

And, let me add that I think it's perfectly acceptable to mock the work "flautist" because it DOES sound stupid. Luthier goes with lute much better than flautist with flute.

Maybe we could call flute makers fluthiers, and lute players lautists?

Stuart

Going back through the thread, I have to agree with Cocus that if you've got the keys, you will use them. And that they help. This "need" question isn't exactly relevant, but half-holing to me is a work-around to play chromatically on a keyless instrument. To me, I say. Sure, there are players who learned to half-hole from the get-go. But, I seriously doubt that anyone who learned on a fully-keyed instrument (with working keys) would eschew the keys for half-holing or wacky alternate-fingering techniques.

[jim stone]

Great thread, ya'll. I truly appreciate everyone's thoughts.

I would have to say, based on all of the opinions above, that I probably will want to stay keyless for a while. (Unless a screaming deal arises.)

But, allow me to redirect the question. There is a selection to be made regarding the number of keys. Other than the single Eb key, and taking $$$ into consideration, how does one decide between 4, 5, 6, or 8 keys?

If you're going to get keys, and you have the dough,
it's probably a good idea to go for six. The C natural key
is very useful, the G# key is too, the Eb key helps a lot
if you play Eb, which is tough going otherwise (but
not much needed in ITM; however other music uses
it). The Bb key is the least useful, IMO, cause it's
pretty easy to half-hole the Bb. The long and short F
keys are, well, I guess it's good to have at least one,
and (unlike Stu) lots of people find there are things
they can do key-wise only if they have both.

Seth Gallagher makes a keyed flute set up for piper's,
with a rt hand Bb touch and low blocks that don't
get in your way, if you find piper's grip is for you.

Eight keys are really a bit much unless you are
going to play classical. They can be useful sometimes
in ITM but they're rarely used, they tend not to work
so well, and they cost a lot.

[Samsdad]

If doctors go to school for 10+ years just to "practice" their trade then I choose to follow suit. I shall from hence forth be called a "flute practitioner".

[rama]

If doctors go to school for 10+ years just to "practice" their trade then I choose to follow suit. I shall from hence forth be called a "flute practitioner".

dream on flute ho

[hans]

Great thread, ya'll. I truly appreciate everyone's thoughts.

I would have to say, based on all of the opinions above, that I probably will want to stay keyless for a while. (Unless a screaming deal arises.)

But, allow me to redirect the question. There is a selection to be made regarding the number of keys. Other than the single Eb key, and taking $$$ into consideration, how does one decide between 4, 5, 6, or 8 keys?

"Unless a screaming deal arises" and "Other than [...] taking $$$ into consideration" are somewhat contradictory. I think money is de facto the deciding force here. A 4 key flute was considered the budget choice for a wooden flute able to play chromatically. Eight keys was the standard. Six keys may be called the cut-down Irish standard.

Foot keys do not need to be problematic. It depends on the design, age and how well maintained they are. Block keys could be called problematic too, as they could be sticky and need more careful maintenance than post-mounted keys.

So, really not considering $$$: It depends entirely on the music you wish to play. Eight keys are not only useful for classical music. If you got them, and they work, you will use them. Even playing tunes in D, to throw in a low leading note in an ornament here and there... Plus you can play full scales in C, really good for song accompaniment.

[cocusflute]

The question was asked when a new player should think about keys—not whether they were necessary. Many of us feel that a new player should consider keys right from the start, for several reasons. Stone's assertion that they were not necessary for ITM was off topic.
The second question regarded the extra weight. Jim says they add “significant weight.” Too heavy is a matter of perception. If the weight of the keys presents a serious problem then the problem is with the person and not the flute. If a person can’t handle the grams involved then he should put the flute aside and start a weight-lifting program.
Some times I think Mr. Stone isn’t listening to what other people are saying.

[peeplj]

This thread is a bit of a tempest in a teapot, itsn't it?

If you want keys and can afford a flute fitted with them, then there's nothing wrong with that, and it will increase the number of tunes you can learn, as well as opening up other kinds of music to you should you ever decide to explore outside ITM.

If you can't afford a keyed flute, then you're decision's already been made for you by your finances: go keyless, you'll still be able to play the majority of common session tunes, and nothing stops you from saving up for a keyed flute in the future.

Best wishes,

--James

P.S. As to the long F key, to use a very common tune for an example, I find the long F key comes very much in handy on the A part of Julia Delaney's; whereas, on the B part, the short F is much handier.

[jim stone]

Here's a pretty good discussion of which keys to get,
and also the eight vs. six key issue.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ys&start=0