I hate my Susato.

[CelticNot]

Hi Aanvil,

You said:

Umm... my Susato is not tapered.

Maybe your Susato is not a Kildare model. If you check out http://www.susato.com/susatopennywhistles.html, you will see that the makers say that the Kildare models have tapered bores. The taper is very slight — I didn't think mine were tapered either until I measured each end of the bore with calipers.

[Aanvil]

It is a Kildare and its an -S- series.

Honestly... If there is a taper its SO slight.

I'll put money on it effecting more the mold release than the accoustics of the whistle.

I know small changes may make big differences but not the kind you are suggesting.

Sounds more like ad copy spin than anything else.

It just my humble opinion.

I haven't done the science.

My digital calipers are at home on my workbench.

[anniemcu]

Could it be that part of the reason some folks think Susatos sound recorder-like is that they (at least the Kildares), like recorders, are made with a tapered bore? I seem to recall reading somewhere that conical and cylindrical bore flutes don't produce the same spectrum of overtones.

Regarding anniemcu's comment comparing the Susato to a Water Weasel: the widely admired Water Weasel is cylindrical, hand voiced, and made of PVC (or cpvc?) while the Susato is a tapered bore production whistle made of ABS plastic, so one shouldn't expect them to sound all that similar. (I don't mean to dis you anniemcu — I just think you were comparing apples to oranges — or maybe Granny Smith apples to Macintosh apples.) At any rate, I like having a couple of Susatos in my whistle collection, and I enjoy playing them. I would probably like a WW too if I had one.

No offense taken. I was just responding to the idea that it sounded the way it did because the whistle was all plastic.

[Whitmores75087]

I have an all-plastic Burke that sounds nothing like a Susato.
In defense of Susato's, when you are on stage, and need a whistle that can be heard, and is reasonably in tune, Susato is IT! I often have trouble hearing myself in the monitor, but with a Susato I can hear the whistle itself, acoustically so to speak. Also the low end of a Susato is the strongest (loudest) low end of any whistle I've ever played. When I play solo pieces with a lot of activity at the low end, it has to be the Susato. And in a crowd of guitars, harp, fiddles, drum, etc, the Susato cuts through and really doesn't sound bad. I liken it to vinegar....no so good by itself, but great with other stuff.

[MTGuru]

the makers say that the Kildare models have tapered bores. The taper is very slight — I didn't think mine were tapered either until I measured each end of the bore with calipers.

Oy vey, this keeps coming up.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#619677
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#615547

All the Kildare bores are tapered but very, very slightly. It is a 1 degree taper, which is why a caliper may not be sufficient to discern any variance on the smaller bores. Kildares are injection molded out of ABS Plastic so they have to have this 1 degree taper so they will come out of the injection mold. The S & L Dublin Series bodies are made of CPVC so they are absolutely cylindrical. Mouthpieces are all ABS Injection Molded Plastic. Hope this helps clear up any confusion.

So Aanvil is spot-on about the mold release and the ad copy. A 1 degree taper is essentially untapered, and acoustically insignificant compared to a conical baroque recorder bore. Hope that helps.

[CelticNot]

MTGuru,

Thanks for finding the quote from Kelishek and clearing things up. I read Aanvil's (astute) comment that the taper might just be for mold release and wondered if he might be right about that, so I am glad you found the quote.

Just a general comment about this whole thread: People sure get fired up when they talk about Susatos! I think that as a new member of this forum I'll just hold my tongue (or keyboard) in the future whenever the subject line has any mention of "Susato."

Have a good night folks.

[anniemcu]

... Just a general comment about this whole thread: People sure get fired up when they talk about Susatos! I think that as a new member of this forum I'll just hold my tongue (or keyboard) in the future whenever the subject line has any mention of "Susato."....

Nah... ask what you will and say what you think (on whatever subject), just always be prepared for someone to argue with you about it... perhaps endlessly, , but you will at least get folks thinking, and you just might learn something new.


Heck, I'm almost ready to try a Susato again myself.

[medit8b1]

I just can't bear to see this thread die! Think I'll buy a Susato just to have something to b*tch about!

[peeplj]

Heck, I'm almost ready to try a Susato again myself.

There has been more written in another thread, but if you do, here's a few quick tips:

1. warm it up and wet it before you play it by covering the window and blowing through it

2. Breath control is key with this whistle. Pull back; keep the speed of the air up but use breath control to reduce the amount of air.

3. The days you want to work with the Susato, don't play any other whistle first. The Susato takes its own approach and it's different from any other whistle I've encountered.

--James

[RamblDoc]

Forming Plastic whistles - -
Susatos are INJECTION MOLDED ABS ( Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene ) plastic and because of this process of forming the polymer chains are mostly in a random alignment. I think this results in a stiffer finished piece (more brittle) with less resonance sympathetic to the sound waves.
Water Weasels are fabricated from pre-formed CPVC pipe which is manufactured by EXTRUSION. This process resuts in polymer chains which are aligned parallel with the direction of flow. Stronger pipe, no doubt about it, good to 100 psi at 180 F degrees with more flexibility, less stiffness, too. Aligned like wood grain (with the grain) the Water Weasel barrels have a noticeable resonance when played, sort of like what you'd expect from a fine wood instrument. This "woody" mellow tone, especially in the low octave, is most evident in my WW Bb / A / Ab set that the late Glenn Schultz made for me; it seems less evident in my WW soprano D, though.
So let's hear it for extruded plastic whistle barrels ! Brass and copper tubing is formed by extrusion also.
My point here is that not all plastic whistles are the same. they shouldn't all be cast in the same mold, so to speak.

Hoping this is helpful for some in understanding plastic whistles a little bit better.
Lloyd

[Kelhorn Mike]

Lloyd,
Can't really see where you are going with this extruded vs ABS
Plastic thing. We make Susato whistle bodies using both materials as our Dublin -S- and -L- series are made with CPVC bodies but these have the same ABS mouthpieces as the Kildare series. I challenge anyone to
be able to hear a discernible difference and really conclusively determine
that etruded plastic is better. To make good injection molds that use
ABS is time consuming and costly but it can result in a precision and
uniformity that is unmatched and the limitations on design and specifications in using extruded materials efficiently is considerable.That's why YAMAHA, AULOS, KELHORN (Me) and many, many others use this technology and material (ABS) in making excellent quality wind instruments. You can make good whistle bodies with extruded material and we do this as well as many others but to imply it is superior is a bit of a stretch. Your theories about polymers is a highly subjective notion in regards to sound qualities.
Thanks for all the comments positive and otherwise on this thread. The
only that makes me cringe is the word "hate". I've always accepted that
Susato's are not everyones "cup of tea" but to use the term "hate" for
any good functional musical instrument (including Susato Whistles) that
has and can make beautiful music is a disservice to all of us who "love" music.

Only my humble opinions,

Kelhorn Mike

[Kelhorn Mike]

Lloyd,
Can't really see where you are going with this extruded vs ABS
Plastic thing. We make Susato whistle bodies using both materials as our Dublin -S- and -L- series are made with CPVC bodies but these have the same ABS mouthpieces as the Kildare series. I challenge anyone to
be able to hear a discernible difference and really conclusively determine
that etruded plastic is better. To make good injection molds that use
ABS is time consuming and costly but it can result in a precision and
uniformity that is unmatched and the limitations on design and specifications in using extruded materials efficiently is considerable.That's why YAMAHA, AULOS, KELHORN (Me) and many, many others use this technology and material (ABS) in making excellent quality wind instruments. You can make good whistle bodies with extruded material and we do this as well as many others but to imply it is superior is a bit of a stretch. Your theories about polymers is a highly subjective notion in regards to sound qualities.
Thanks for all the comments positive and otherwise on this thread. The
only that makes me cringe is the word "hate". I've always accepted that
Susato's are not everyones "cup of tea" but to use the term "hate" for
any good functional musical instrument (including Susato Whistles) that
has and can make beautiful music is a disservice to all of us who "love" music.

Only my humble opinions,

Kelhorn Mike

[Kelhorn Mike]

Lloyd,
Can't really see where you are going with this extruded vs ABS
Plastic thing. We make Susato whistle bodies using both materials as our Dublin -S- and -L- series are made with CPVC bodies but these have the same ABS mouthpieces as the Kildare series. I challenge anyone to
be able to hear a discernible difference and really conclusively determine
that etruded plastic is better. To make good injection molds that use
ABS is time consuming and costly but it can result in a precision and
uniformity that is unmatched and the limitations on design and specifications in using extruded materials efficiently is considerable.That's why YAMAHA, AULOS, KELHORN (Me) and many, many others use this technology and material (ABS) in making excellent quality wind instruments. You can make good whistle bodies with extruded material and we do this as well as many others but to imply it is superior is a bit of a stretch. Your theories about polymers is a highly subjective notion in regards to sound qualities.
Thanks for all the comments positive and otherwise on this thread. The
only that makes me cringe is the word "hate". I've always accepted that
Susato's are not everyones "cup of tea" but to use the term "hate" for
any good functional musical instrument (including Susato Whistles) that
has and can make beautiful music is a disservice to all of us who "love" music.

Only my humble opinions,

Kelhorn Mike

[medit8b1]

We are sooo busted!

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is emotionally extreme. And as previously stated, this forum is at least partly meant to be an outlet for those opinions. Just my not so humble opinion.

[Aanvil]

We are sooo busted!

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is emotionally extreme. And as previously stated, this forum is at least partly meant to be an outlet for those opinions. Just my not so humble opinion.

No we are not "busted"



Mr. Kelhorn Mike.

Are you suggesting that I do not love music?

I am not like you?

Crickey thats rough.


Ok, now I am officially offended.


My "hate" for things often times runs from mild dislike to a mouth frothing loath.

My post was as much tounge in check as it was a serious call for suggestions.


You will be happy to know that because of my strongly worded post I have gained some valuable information and I am now only mildly disliking the whistle.

If you feel the need for a compliment.

I'm very impressed with its crisp response to ornamentation.

I really want to like it actually.



I know you took it personally.

Please don't.

I make my living as a creative. I understand.

Its hard to take a crit sometimes.

I have to listen.

Its a disservice to my clients otherwise.



Thank you for making your whistles.

Best of luck in all your endeavors.