I wonder if anyone tried Erik Tully's whistle Capos, i.e. small rings made to mechanically half-hole C and F naturals ?
This seems like a pretty novel approach to make a "modal" whistle, even if you have to reposition the Capos from tune to tune (no medleys... thank God).
Keyed Whistles
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Loren
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No Bill, it's not rocket science, and I never said it was. Any competant silversmith could forge the keys....once he or she has worked out exactly how they need to be shaped to both function well mechanically, and also ergonomically, for an instrument that doesn't yet exist..... It's not like you can just exactly copy the keyes from an existing instrument, like you could basically do if making a flute.
But first you'd have to make a good whistle.....
And it's not like you can just slap the keys on any old way with super glue or something. You'd have to deal with either posts or blocks, where to put them, how to mount them, getting the adjustment just right so the pads seal well even after hundreds of touches...all these things are fairly strait forward when repairing instruments that already exist, but it's a whole other thing to build one from scratch. The high cost I suggest isn't due primarily to the "difficulty factor" it's because this stuff is time consuming.
I used to manage a musical instrument store, we employed woodwind repairmen because we rented several hundred band instruments each school year. I spent lots of time in the shop, watching and talking to these guys because I found the work fascinating. I've seen how time consuming it can be to work on mass produced keyed instruments, even with the ready availability of replacement parts. Sure, we're talking about something less keys, most or all of which wouldn't be strung together, but still there are time consuming challenges involved in doing this from scratch.
I suppose a a fairly inexpensive one or two key Low whistle could be made in reasonable amount of time, I'm just not sure many people would be interested, so my comments are based on the idea that a maker would need to come up with something with enough keys to be chromatic.
Mando Paul,
What little I know about mandolin and guitar making leads me to believe that the construction methods and challenges are very different from those involved in making a good keyed woodwind. I don't think that knowledge of one will give you a good idea of the difficulty or time involved in making the other.
Regarding beginners and low whistles, you make it sound like I'm taking some elitest attitude, which I'm not, because I don't consider myself a particularly good player, and I'm certainly not putting beginning players down, nor am I trying to tell anyone what they should or should not want. I'm merely saying that my observation over the last several years has been that people generally gravitate from low whistle to flute, and I don't think having keyed Low whistles around will change that much, since the flute has some significant advantages over the whistle, not the least of which are flexabilty of tone, and greater dynamics, and more power - so you can actually be heard at sessions etc.
But I tell you what. Stick around here a while, and then let's have this conversation in another three years to see where it leads us. Perhaps by then someone will have put out a decent keyed Low whistle, and, maybe one or both of us will have a different perspective by then.
In the mean time, there are Vertical headjoints available for keyed concert flutes. There are D fifes, Low F and G whistles that require shorter finger stretches, and there are Low D's like the Dixon or Overton that have very reasonable finger hole spacings, even for the Low D - All options for those who have trouble with the standard Low D whistle.
I will say this however: It's been my experience over the years, (as a professional instructor of things like Martial Arts and Rock Climbing), that people tend to say they can't do things long before they've put in enough time and effort, with the proper attitude, to accurately make that determination. Having helped blind people learn how to climb quite successfully, I am always somewhat skeptical when a person complains about the low d whistle being too difficult to play.....
And yes, I have small hands and had to work at it to be able to play both the low whistle and flute, so I do know what it's like.
Loren
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-10-20 10:32 ]</font>
But first you'd have to make a good whistle.....
And it's not like you can just slap the keys on any old way with super glue or something. You'd have to deal with either posts or blocks, where to put them, how to mount them, getting the adjustment just right so the pads seal well even after hundreds of touches...all these things are fairly strait forward when repairing instruments that already exist, but it's a whole other thing to build one from scratch. The high cost I suggest isn't due primarily to the "difficulty factor" it's because this stuff is time consuming.
I used to manage a musical instrument store, we employed woodwind repairmen because we rented several hundred band instruments each school year. I spent lots of time in the shop, watching and talking to these guys because I found the work fascinating. I've seen how time consuming it can be to work on mass produced keyed instruments, even with the ready availability of replacement parts. Sure, we're talking about something less keys, most or all of which wouldn't be strung together, but still there are time consuming challenges involved in doing this from scratch.
I suppose a a fairly inexpensive one or two key Low whistle could be made in reasonable amount of time, I'm just not sure many people would be interested, so my comments are based on the idea that a maker would need to come up with something with enough keys to be chromatic.
Mando Paul,
What little I know about mandolin and guitar making leads me to believe that the construction methods and challenges are very different from those involved in making a good keyed woodwind. I don't think that knowledge of one will give you a good idea of the difficulty or time involved in making the other.
Regarding beginners and low whistles, you make it sound like I'm taking some elitest attitude, which I'm not, because I don't consider myself a particularly good player, and I'm certainly not putting beginning players down, nor am I trying to tell anyone what they should or should not want. I'm merely saying that my observation over the last several years has been that people generally gravitate from low whistle to flute, and I don't think having keyed Low whistles around will change that much, since the flute has some significant advantages over the whistle, not the least of which are flexabilty of tone, and greater dynamics, and more power - so you can actually be heard at sessions etc.
But I tell you what. Stick around here a while, and then let's have this conversation in another three years to see where it leads us. Perhaps by then someone will have put out a decent keyed Low whistle, and, maybe one or both of us will have a different perspective by then.
In the mean time, there are Vertical headjoints available for keyed concert flutes. There are D fifes, Low F and G whistles that require shorter finger stretches, and there are Low D's like the Dixon or Overton that have very reasonable finger hole spacings, even for the Low D - All options for those who have trouble with the standard Low D whistle.
I will say this however: It's been my experience over the years, (as a professional instructor of things like Martial Arts and Rock Climbing), that people tend to say they can't do things long before they've put in enough time and effort, with the proper attitude, to accurately make that determination. Having helped blind people learn how to climb quite successfully, I am always somewhat skeptical when a person complains about the low d whistle being too difficult to play.....
And yes, I have small hands and had to work at it to be able to play both the low whistle and flute, so I do know what it's like.
Loren
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-10-20 10:32 ]</font>
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Wombat
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Just a few little comments on Loren's post, almost all of which I agree with.
A local maker of Uilleann pipes (who doesn't have a good reputation) will make chanters with up to four keys for accidentals. Unless my memory fails me, each key adds $500 to the total cost.
I'd love to have a keyed low whistle because one reason I took up whistle was to have a flute-like instrument in my arsenal which wouldn't take up all my practice time. Keeping your embouchure in shape seems to be a constant battle for flautists and playing fipple flute bypasses this particular difficulty.
I too am not very good on low whistle yet but I'm improving much faster than I thought I would at first. Several things have helped me. I have good instruments; my low Ds are Copeland, Overton and Bartlett (a local maker.) The Bartlett, although not to everybody's taste I'm sure has the breath requirements of a high whistle so I can work on fingering without having to worry about breathing. When I move back to the Overton, I find I'm then able to play things I couldn't play before. But I'd love a good chromatic whistle if one ever becomes available.
A local maker of Uilleann pipes (who doesn't have a good reputation) will make chanters with up to four keys for accidentals. Unless my memory fails me, each key adds $500 to the total cost.
I'd love to have a keyed low whistle because one reason I took up whistle was to have a flute-like instrument in my arsenal which wouldn't take up all my practice time. Keeping your embouchure in shape seems to be a constant battle for flautists and playing fipple flute bypasses this particular difficulty.
I too am not very good on low whistle yet but I'm improving much faster than I thought I would at first. Several things have helped me. I have good instruments; my low Ds are Copeland, Overton and Bartlett (a local maker.) The Bartlett, although not to everybody's taste I'm sure has the breath requirements of a high whistle so I can work on fingering without having to worry about breathing. When I move back to the Overton, I find I'm then able to play things I couldn't play before. But I'd love a good chromatic whistle if one ever becomes available.
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Loren
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My jump wasn't instant, I've had several years to learn a little bit about what it takes to make flutes and whistles - having talked to many whistle and flute makers, and having gotten some training on the lathe and in silver smithing.On 2002-10-20 02:56, MandoPaul wrote:
I didn't say it would be cheap; I questioned your instant jump to $2k-3k. Economic forces do influence instrument making but don't dictate it. If they did, noone would make wooden whistles; they'd all make wooden keyed flutes.
Your econmic assesment is wrong, the money is in whistles, not keyed flutes. I don't know if he or Jim R. will care to comment, but I suspect Michael Copeland did better overall in the long run (financially) when he switched from flute making to whistle making. However it's great hearing that they will be starting to make some small number of flutes again.
Loren
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serpent
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Hi, all. Hey, Loren, again I was being a bit facetious when I said it ain't rocket science, and I'm coming back in to let the folks know that although making a key is, indeed, somewhat trivial, it isn't an activity for everyone.
Addressing the posts, I don't think I'd be using a pair. Indeed, those are durn hard to get right on a repair instrument that's lost one and had the location of the other rubbed off. But once you have the key placement and pad closure centered up, it wouldn't be difficult at all to solder down a unit comprising both posts and a "tie" piece.
On a metal whistle, you produce a flange to be soldered around the bottommost hole - as to chromatic whistles, I'm not going there. They would, indeed, be a very expensive proposition, and one which even I, the Eternal Optimist, would be loth to tackle!
The flange adds "thickness" to the bore, so the placement of the bottommost hole would differ. That can mostly be covered by using a good calculator, but tweaking such a hole would be difficult, at best - I would approach it as a separate problem, and work with some material I knew I was going to toss, the first time.
The height and placement of the pad is accomplished by setting it in shellac, using an alcohol torch. When you do that, seal (assuming the carrier is level to the flange on closure, and properly centred), is kind of "automatic". You warm the key, melt the shellac into it, slip the pad in, and hold the key closed while the shellac hardens. That method almost never fails.
Okay, this is a basis for a good technical discussion, I think, and one I'd personally like to see on the (proposed) Celtic woodwind tech forum.
Summing up, I do have to agree with everyone who's said so, that adding a key to a whistle isn't going to be cheap, but I don't think it would add thousands, or even hundreds, to the price. Any whistlesmith with the merest grain of common sense would realize that, if s/he were going to do it for one whistler, it could engender business from others, and wouldn't expect the first to front the entire cost of research. That's how R&D works in the Real World, or nobody'd buy a new car, for fear of getting the first one off the line!
What a hell of a lottery that'd be!!! 
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
Addressing the posts, I don't think I'd be using a pair. Indeed, those are durn hard to get right on a repair instrument that's lost one and had the location of the other rubbed off. But once you have the key placement and pad closure centered up, it wouldn't be difficult at all to solder down a unit comprising both posts and a "tie" piece.
On a metal whistle, you produce a flange to be soldered around the bottommost hole - as to chromatic whistles, I'm not going there. They would, indeed, be a very expensive proposition, and one which even I, the Eternal Optimist, would be loth to tackle!
The flange adds "thickness" to the bore, so the placement of the bottommost hole would differ. That can mostly be covered by using a good calculator, but tweaking such a hole would be difficult, at best - I would approach it as a separate problem, and work with some material I knew I was going to toss, the first time.
The height and placement of the pad is accomplished by setting it in shellac, using an alcohol torch. When you do that, seal (assuming the carrier is level to the flange on closure, and properly centred), is kind of "automatic". You warm the key, melt the shellac into it, slip the pad in, and hold the key closed while the shellac hardens. That method almost never fails.
Okay, this is a basis for a good technical discussion, I think, and one I'd personally like to see on the (proposed) Celtic woodwind tech forum.
Summing up, I do have to agree with everyone who's said so, that adding a key to a whistle isn't going to be cheap, but I don't think it would add thousands, or even hundreds, to the price. Any whistlesmith with the merest grain of common sense would realize that, if s/he were going to do it for one whistler, it could engender business from others, and wouldn't expect the first to front the entire cost of research. That's how R&D works in the Real World, or nobody'd buy a new car, for fear of getting the first one off the line!
What a hell of a lottery that'd be!!! Cheers,
Bill Whedon
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Loren
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When I said getting the pads to seat on the holes was a problem, I wasn't talking about installing the pad on the key - that's child's play compared to actually designing, fabricating, positioning, and mounting the the mounting mechanism and the key itself, so that they will be in the position, and stable enough to for a properly seated pad to actually come down on the hole properly every time. That's what I was referring to.
Anyway, we've about beaten this to death, I'm moving on.
Loren
Anyway, we've about beaten this to death, I'm moving on.
Loren
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serpent
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Well, I know I glossed over the placement and height of the key unit, itself, but that's all a matter of measurement and accuracy of machining. Frankly, getting the "feel" of such an assembly would be a bit problematic, at first, I think, too.On 2002-10-20 12:23, Loren wrote:
When I said getting the pads to seat on the holes was a problem, I wasn't talking about installing the pad on the key - that's child's play compared to actually designing, fabricating, positioning, and mounting the the mounting mechanism and the key itself, so that they will be in the position, and stable enough to for a properly seated pad to actually come down on the hole properly every time. That's what I was referring to.
Anyway, we've about beaten this to death, I'm moving on.
Loren
Anyhow, I agree - unless somebody wants to jump in and chat some more about construction (Please use the "Calling Whistlesmiths..." thread - I'll open it again for that), I'm going to drop out, too.
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
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Paul
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Loren, have you ever thought seriously about trying your hand at whistle / flutemaking? While reading all the posts here I noticed that you mention that you have learned the arts of smithing, lathework, etc... and you DEFINITELY have a lot of passion for the instruments and have amassed huge wealth of knowledge about them. (now that's a run-on)
If this subject has come up before, then I apologise for posting it. I wasn't sure so I put it here instead of starting a new thread. It just seems like you could do it, Loren. I mean passion for something (especially like instrument making or art)is a big part of it. The part which cannot be taught.
I don't know you personally but from reading what you wrote in this thread alone I see that you have a lot of things going on in your life like Martial Arts Climbing instruction ... why not add one more?
Slan
-Paul
If this subject has come up before, then I apologise for posting it. I wasn't sure so I put it here instead of starting a new thread. It just seems like you could do it, Loren. I mean passion for something (especially like instrument making or art)is a big part of it. The part which cannot be taught.
I don't know you personally but from reading what you wrote in this thread alone I see that you have a lot of things going on in your life like Martial Arts Climbing instruction ... why not add one more?
Slan
-Paul
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Loren
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Paul,
Yes, I have thought about it.
(I actually gave up my Martial Arts School, and teaching physical skills in general, several years ago, for a variety of reasons, so I am no longer doing those things professionally.)
And yes, I do have a passion for flutes and whistles. More than that, I wouldn't like to say - for one never knows what the future holds, and talk is cheap.
Thanks for asking though.
Loren
Yes, I have thought about it.
(I actually gave up my Martial Arts School, and teaching physical skills in general, several years ago, for a variety of reasons, so I am no longer doing those things professionally.)
And yes, I do have a passion for flutes and whistles. More than that, I wouldn't like to say - for one never knows what the future holds, and talk is cheap.
Thanks for asking though.
Loren
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MandoPaul
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Fair enough. But it does give me a very good idea of pricing and economic problems/challenges. I've talked to various flute makers and while the details of how different instruments are made does differ, figuring how to recover cost of time and materials doesn't. R&D and market for new ideas also is quite similar.On 2002-10-20 10:20, Loren wrote:
What little I know about mandolin and guitar making leads me to believe that the construction methods and challenges are very different from those involved in making a good keyed woodwind. I don't think that knowledge of one will give you a good idea of the difficulty or time involved in making the other.
Running a retail store is a very different economic model from building instruments. Repair of instruments has a different model than either.
I've never designed or built an automobile but I have a decent idea of what the costs and time are to develop a new model. I could probably also quibble that martial arts isn't teaching whistle, though they are both teaching and involve physical training.
I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. If I weren't interested in learning, I wouldn't be on this board.
Why don't we get off personal qualifications and back to the topic at hand?
OK. Who does them? Have you tried them? Is the headjoint a whistle fipple design? Do they sound similar to (or the same as) low-D whistles (realizing that there's a fair amount of variance in sound even among whistles)?In the mean time, there are Vertical headjoints available for keyed concert flutes.
D fifes aren't in the same range and F & G whistles aren't in the same key, so this isn't a great substitute if you really want Low D range and key.There are D fifes, Low F and G whistles that require shorter finger stretches,...
I thought the Dixon and Overton were standard whistles....and there are Low D's like the Dixon or Overton that have very reasonable finger hole spacings, even for the Low D - All options for those who have trouble with the standard Low D whistle.
Yes, there are some whistles that are easier than others. However, I thought the question was feasibility of a low hole key, not alternatives.
So, you've raised some economic concerns (R&D costs, possible market) and come up with alternatives to satisfying the requirement. Doesn't mean a keyed Low-D isn't possible; you just don't think it would be worth what you think it would cost.
Have I summarized your position?
Anyone else got opinions on it?
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Loren
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bodhrans
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This comes fairly late in the thread, but I will put my hand up as one maker who does make keyed low whistles. At the moment, while I make a range of low whistles, I offer the option of keys on LowD (bottom hole), LowC (bottom hole/4th hole if required) and lowBb (bottom and 4th holes). I make brass whistles, so the addition of brass hardware is no technical problem. I must also say that the use of a minimum number of keys does not affect the "playability" of the instruments, it is certainly possible to half hole or slide notes on the keyed holes with a little practice. I'm not really surprised that more makers do not offer the option of keys, as what I have seen is that most low whistles are more "production made" rather than "hand made", and the addition of time consuming hand made keys would sky rocket the price of an already overpriced article. There are exceptions of course, more power to those whistle makers who follow the hand made path and can offer keys as an option, there are a few of them in the US. Seek them out! Cheers, Erle Bartlett.
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MandoPaul
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Not at all. Actually read my previous post. I went through yours point by point. You had a series of alternatives to a keyed low-D and opinions on what a keyed whistle would cost and why you thought it wasn't a good economic decision.On 2002-10-20 15:08, Loren wrote:
No, you just claim that all of my answers are wrong.
I asked for more details on some of the alternatives you mentioned.
Instead of answering any of them, you chose one single sentence from my post, out of context, in a way that adds nothing constructive to the topic.
How about answering my questions?
On vertical headjoints for flutes:
OK. Who does them? Have you tried them? Is the headjoint a whistle fipple design? Do they sound similar to (or the same as) low-D whistles (realizing that there's a fair amount of variance in sound even among whistles)?
You said that before. I'm not trying to "have fun", I'm trying to get useful information. Are you trying to get or share useful information? If you are, do you have answers to my questions? You brought up the alternatives and asserted costs. I'm trying to get more details.Well, have fun - as I said, I'm not wasting any more time on this.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MandoPaul on 2002-10-20 16:29 ]</font>
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Loren
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Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
When you continually go through my constructively intended posts, attempting to pick apart and discredit a good deal of what I'm offering (with no significant backround as a flute or whistle maker that I am aware of), is it any wonder that I'm not more interested in going out of my way to offer you additional information? Unbelieveable. If you're going to take an adversarial stance, don't expect me to hand you anything on a plate, at this point I expect you'll to just throw it back in my face.
Here's a novel idea: If you want to know more about vertical headjoints for flutes, how about summoning up a little motivation to do a quick search on the internet, or call a few flute stores or.....
Here's a novel idea: If you want to know more about vertical headjoints for flutes, how about summoning up a little motivation to do a quick search on the internet, or call a few flute stores or.....