Irony? And a thought.

[canpiper]

I played highland pipes at a pretty high level - I was in a top band when I was 14, and by 22, I was already getting sick of it. I must admit that a big part of my discontent had to do with 'the politics' in that world. It's a story I know I don't have to go into here - I've read numerous entries on this board where people have assailed the highland piping community for just the kinds of things that bothered me. Catty comments, and constant criticism of great players seemed to get in the way, or take the place of, peoples enjoyment of the music, and I was guilty of perpetuating that myself. I made fun of players I was better than, and hammered people who deviated in their adherence to orthodox musical practices and conventions. To be honest, though, I was a kid through most of it, and then I grew up.

One of the reasons I've recently attempted to make the transition to playing Irish trad. is that people are always saying how inclusive it is - how it is really about appreciating the music, etc. I've enjoyed the music as a listener since I was young, and I missed playing hornpipes and jigs, so it seemed just the thing. When I explained this all to a highland piper friend, he scoffed at me, and told me that he didn't think the Irish music scene was much different.

What I found surprising in the "trad vs. modern playing" thread, and in the thread I started on Ennis, was that he seemed to be right, and that so many of the posts sounded like the kinds of things people say in highland piping circles. Having had the opportunity to visit some of the posters websites, I was even more surprised to find that some of the most outspoken posters were people I'm already more profficient then (and that, is NOT saying very much at all!).

The thing is, I shouldn't be surprised. I'm not a relativist. I don't think that "it's all a matter of perspective". Some people know more than others. Some players are better than others, and there are ways of distinguishing these people (I'm certainly better than I was 3 months ago, and that is not a subjective evaluation). So inevitably, there will be good, knowledgeable players who are going to get frustrated with relatively poor, uninformed players, and want to set them straight. And that's a good thing, if it's done in the right way, and for the right reasons. There are also going to be hacks who hide behind message boards where nobody can evaluate their playing, and attack proffessional players and students alike. I'm not so fine with that, but it is inevitable. The truth is, this happens in all circles. I've always known that it happens in classical music (I just always found it more petty in trad circles), and it probably even serves some function.

I, for one, found a lot of the posts on those threads helpful (even some of the harsh ones), and there were certainly people who made patient, and sober observations. But not as many as I had expected.

One constant piece of advice on this forum I do agree with is that playing is more important than posting, and it's a piece of advice I have followed constantly. In defence of highland pipers, though, I felt the need to say something in light of the past few days posts, and given that people who don't know anything about me felt confident enough to attack my musical tastes and competence, I thought I was entitled as well.

I think I've posted enough for a while. I'm off for some much needed practice!

[uilleannpiper]

Hear hear! I totally agree.

[No E]

If you'd like to see the inclusive, helpful, supportive side of the uilleann pipe community, go to a tionól or club meeting (and for God's sake don't judge the ITM crowd by what you read here ).

We're really a pretty good bunch in person.

No E

[Patrick D'Arcy]

We're really a pretty good bunch in person.

Speak for yourself!

Pat.

[Cayden]

I think one of the things that got the barbs up on the thread you're referring to is the way you approached the playing of Seamus Ennis, long long after people tried to explain to you what might be there you insisted on being pointed to tunes you 'could actually learn something from'. Now, even listening to Ennis' later recordings I can still hear stuff to learn from and I have listened to those closely for over 25 years. I dare say that any keen piper could lock him/herself away for at least ten years with the Pure Drop and The Foxchase and still not have covered all fine detail and insights included in those recordings.

What I am saying is, your approach in your questioning was already full of assumption and mostly of the downputting sort from the beginning of your query and stretching well into the discussion. And you're still going on you're 'more proficient' than some of the posters on the thread. That may well be but that sort of chest-pounding is not necessarily conducive to discussion without an undertone of irritation.

On the subject of inclusiveness, that's something that's earned not assumed.

[oliver]

I must confess I think Peter is quite right here.

[canpiper]

Hi Peter,

I don't want to get into a back and forth about this (it would just get locked anyway).

I just want to emphasize that I was not being cheaky when I was asking for tunes that I could learn something from. One of the ways I've always learned music, was by having teachers take tracks from great players, and point out things things they do that should be noted. I learned highland piping that way, and I learned saxaphone that way too. I don't know how to convince you that I was being sincere, and I realize that one of the problems with text is that it is hard to convey ones tone when writing, but all of my questions were honest - they really were.

I respect your playing, and your dedication to the music tremendously. From what I have seen, you are one of the most knowledgable contributors to this forum, and I have learned several things from your contributions. I meant no offence to you, and certainly not to the musical tradition. I apologize if my questions were not written as well as they might have been.

I don't mean to beat my chest either. I have very little to beat it about. As I've said, I'm pretty new at this. The nice people at the Ontario Pipers Club can testify to that.

[PJ]

Did you really think that one group of people (UPipers) would differ from another group (GHBers) just because they play a different instrument?

The uilleann pipes don't attract a better crowd. The only difference between UP and GHB is that you can smoke and drink while playing the UP... And it's a far superior instrument, hehehe!!

[Pazziato]

I really don't have a chicken in this fight, but I want to comment anyway (because I am a jerk who should mind his own business).

Canpiper says:

I think I've posted enough for a while. I'm off for some much needed practice!

I agree. That is a good plan. Also, get over yourself. The "I left the mean world of GHB for the bright and sunny shores of ITM" speech is disingenuous and annoying.

Before that, Canpiper said:

Catty comments, and constant criticism of great players seemed to get in the way, or take the place of, peoples enjoyment of the music, and I was guilty of perpetuating that myself. I made fun of players I was better than, and hammered people who deviated in their adherence to orthodox musical practices and conventions.

You even admit to being the kind of ___________ that made you yearn for the smiles, warm handshakes and happiness of ITM. Sorry: where ever you go, there you are.




Edited to remove invective.

[canpiper]

Sorry, I'm not sure who you are, but you should read the rest of the paragraph you quoted in your second quotation.


As for my being disingeiuous, I'm not sure what you mean, but if you would really like, I could PM you some references.

If you're eager for me to quit posting, you need only avoid making such posts yourself.

Anything else?

[uilleannpiper]

There's a lot of people here who think that being an authority on Seamus Ennis equates to being an authority on piping fullstop. They bark when someone disagrees with their singlemindedness and dismiss those who get their inspiration elsewhere as 'the un-informed'. I've been listening to Seamus Ennis for a long time now as well as lots of other pipers, old and new. I prefer lots of pipers to Ennis but that certainly doesn't make me un-informed or my opinion any less valid than those who worship Ennis. I can see how this kind of arrogance could be off-putting to anybody new to piping.

[waymer]

Lest one forget it is advertized as a surly group forum

sur·ly /ˈsɜrli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sur-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -li·er, -li·est. 1. churlishly rude or bad-tempered: a surly waiter.
2. unfriendly or hostile; menacingly irritable: a surly old lion.
3. dark or dismal; menacing; threatening: a surly sky.
4. Obsolete. lordly; arrogant.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1560–70; sp. var. of obs. sirly lordly, arrogant, equiv. to sir + -ly]

—Related forms
sur·li·ly, adverb
sur·li·ness, noun


—Synonyms 1. sullen, irascible, cross, grumpy. See glum.

[billh]

Remember, this is the Internet.

Sigh.

Fortunately, many people are more pleasant in person.

As for "learning something" from Ennis, I would accept there are occasions when it just isn't the right time to learn from a particular style, performance, or legacy. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned there, of course - it says as much about where the student is on his or her journey.

One point to remember about Ennis, and I think one of the factors that makes him so special, is his role as a collector and interpreter of a vast sweep of traditional music from across the country. His employment meant that he was continually brought into contact with music that was both new to him and very old, and was consciously integrating that into his understanding of the tradition and his performances. I think this helps explain why even as a piper (as opposed to a collector), he had such a sweeping and dramatic influence on the tradition; and I think those experiences are there in the deep texture of his music.

I don't consider myself an "Ennis disciple", nor do I consciously look to Ennis as a model for my own playing very often; but his influence is everywhere.

- Bill

[PJ]

One point to remember about Ennis, and I think one of the factors that makes him so special, is his role as a collector and interpreter of a vast sweep of traditional music from across the country. His employment meant that he was continually brought into contact with music that was both new to him and very old, and was consciously integrating that into his understanding of the tradition and his performances. I think this helps explain why even as a piper (as opposed to a collector), he had such a sweeping and dramatic influence on the tradition; and I think those experiences are there in the deep texture of his music.

Well said. This is something that often gets glossed over.

[Cynth]

I guess I'll go ahead and share my thoughts too.

I think you are correct when you say that tone is difficult to convey in writing.

I, just speaking for myself, was very put off by what I perceived to be the tone of the first post in the thread titled "So, Ennis...educate me", which I believe is the thread being refered to here. I have just read it again and find that it affects me no differently. In fact, I was very put off by the title alone. I'm not a musician so I've no need to put down your playing to make mine look better because I've got no playing and very little knowledge. I just thought the post and the title showed a lack of manners that I would have noticed regardless of whom the subject of the thread was.

If the tone wan't intended, then I'm glad to hear that. I guess I'd recommend spending more time writing your posts so that the tone you do intend to be perceived comes through. And I will re-dedicate myself to not assuming the tone I am perceiving is the intended one.