Olwell medium versus large hole models

[rama]

You're just being argumentative, and you know full well that when someone knows they play sharp or flat consistently, the answer is to correct the problem with one's playing technique, rather than to start yanking the tuning slide way in or out. But then you just like to disagree with me.
Loren

Actually, I thought he was discussing rather nicely.

And in the 5 years I've been on the board, it seems to me that you like to disagree with about 95% of the people on here.

John

you can make that 96% now

[Aodhan]

You're just being argumentative, and you know full well that when someone knows they play sharp or flat consistently, the answer is to correct the problem with one's playing technique, rather than to start yanking the tuning slide way in or out. But then you just like to disagree with me.
Loren

Actually, I thought he was discussing rather nicely.

And in the 5 years I've been on the board, it seems to me that you like to disagree with about 95% of the people on here.

John

you can make that 96% now

John

[Loren]

You're just being argumentative, and you know full well that when someone knows they play sharp or flat consistently, the answer is to correct the problem with one's playing technique, rather than to start yanking the tuning slide way in or out. But then you just like to disagree with me.
Loren

Actually, I thought he was discussing rather nicely.

And in the 5 years I've been on the board, it seems to me that you like to disagree with about 95% of the people on here.

John

you can make that 96% now

Loren

[Loren]

Okay, it's taken me a while to get back here......

Altering the length of a flute by use of the tuning slide changes the relationship of all the notes of the scale by various percentages, rather than an equal percentage, so compensating for significantly sharp or flat playing, by adjusting the tuning slide throws the instrument out of tune with itself.

Absolutely, but are you suggesting that tuning slides are obsolete and unnecessary?

Nope, not at all. What I'm suggesting is that as flute players, we should understand how our flutes operate, and specifically in this case, exactly what happens when we adjust the tuning slide, so that we can make informed choices.

Given their original purpose, to change the pitch of the flute from, say, A=427 to A=437, they're obsolete, but don't they still have a use in the modern context of standard pitch A=440?

I don't believe this is accurate, historically. I don't want to get too far off track since I've got limited time here, but historically, I don't believe the tuning slide was implemented in order to regularly span ranges as wide as you mention. Even today, on modern flutes, which are much less "tuning challenged/compromised" than our wooden flutes, the typical range the instrument is expected to span very well, is about half of that. (Flutes made in A=442 with a suggested range of A=440 to A=444, as I recall)

Sure, tuning slides are still plenty useful, let's just understand what happens when we use them, how it affects the instrument's overall tuning, so that we don't get carried away and use the slide as a crutch for poor or weak techinque.

Occasionally, one does need to make some small adjustments,

Absolutely, and I've never said otherwise, I simply replied to Cocus' comment that the slide exists, among other things, to make up differences between how makers and players blow, by stating that from a historical perspective, the tuning slide wasn't implemented for this reason.

and I find it's easier to do so with a slide than without. I usually make a small adjustment or two over the course of a session as my flute warms up. (I'm talking maybe up to 1/8" or so total movement.)

Ahh yes, "easier"...... well, that's what I was getting at, but not in the context of moving the slide an eighth of an inch during a session. My comment has been driven far out of context, which is causing misunderstandings, I believe.

Sure, we use the tuning slide to make minor adjustments here and there to compensate for atmospheric conditions, other instruments that can't tune to us, other players who should be able to tune to us, but don't have the ear for it, etc. etc. This is not a problem, and I wasn't suggesting that anyone stop doing this, or that the use of the tuning slide is inappropriate in these situations - as long as the tuning slide adjustments are relatively small, however I've often seen people playing their wooden flutes with the slide completely closed or open so far as to appear the thing is going to come apart, and I'm not talking about historic flutes that were made to be played much higher or lower than A=440.

Still with that said, I believe it's important for flute players to understand what is happing to the tuning of their flute when they start moving the slide from its ideal position.

The context that I originally commented in though was a very different one: It was the situation where a person chronically plays flat or sharp, and uses the slide to compensate. In this case, moving the slide significantly in order to play "up to pitch" or "down to pitch" causes one to have to work much harder to play the flute "in-tune", because the entire scale of the flute (it's intonation relative to itself) is thrown off.

Here's the misconception that many flute players operate under: "When I adjust the slide on my flute, the instrument's entire tuning moves up or down the same amount." Or put another way: Let's say you pick up your flute, play a bit until it's warm, then blow a 1st octave G note and look at the tuner - we'll assume for the sake of argument that you're not "playing to the tuner" - adjusting subconsciously to what you are seeing. And for our purposes here we'll also say you happened to start with the slide at essentially the extension the maker intended. (There is only one most correct sounding length for your flute - that is the length the maker decided to build the entire scale of the instrument on.)

Okay so you play G on your flute and see that you're 30 cents flat. Now you adjust your slide to bring your G note up 30 cents. Now, your whole flute has been adjusted 30 cents sharper, right? Wrong! The notes below G have come up less than 30 cents (progressively), while the notes above G have gone up (progressively) more than 30 cents, - thus the relationships between notes (the scale) has changed significantly, and the player now must adjust differently, and perhaps quite a bit more, from note to note. Where as if you can simply roll, lip, or blow the flute up or down a bit to adjust your overall pitch, then that's the only adjustment you have to make, because now the entire flute comes up or down essentially an equal amount - the flute's intended scale stays intact. Think about this, it's important to know and understand. Consider this in the context of someone who plays chronically flat or sharp and uses the slide to adjust....... They have to work harder to play the entire flute in tune with itself, because they've made scale of the instrument out of tune by choosing to play with the slide adjusted significantly off from where the instrument whas designed to best play in tune with itself.

If there's no slide, what about the gap that's created when adjusting a head and tenon arrangement? (Maybe the announcement on the London Tube is directed at flute players: "Mind the gap.")

Hey, I'm not lobbying for the abolition of tuning slides, just suggesting folks learn more about how their instruments work, so that they can make informed decisions, like "do I want to roll, lip, or blow the entire flute up or down a bit more in order to avoid a lot more corrections between notes? Or should I just go ahead and monkey the slide a half inch and work on my "lip flexibility"


Loren

[Loren]

Better to find out where a given flute was meant to have the tuning slide set, mark that spot in some fashion, or make a simple measuring device (make an additional couple of marks on your swab stick which you can then hold up to the bands at the tuning slide) and then learn to play the instrument up to pitch where it was made to play best in-tune with itself.

I don't expect you to take that advice Chas (old dogs and new tricks etc) however for other players out there not yet so set in their ways, that's my perspective, as a maker.

Hmm. I play in a session with at least three and sometimes as many as five other flute players. On the scale of relative playing ability, I'd put myself in the lower half of the group. Some of you have heard me play, so that might give you an idea of the standard of this session. Others will just have to take my word that we've all been at it for a good while. All of the flute players at this session play Pratten-model Olwells, although one of us doesn't have a tuning slide. We're sometimes faced with the challenge of playing in tune with an accordion, but not always because the accordion player switches off to the fiddle at times (and his fiddle is not necessarily tuned to his accordion). But we flute players are always faced with the challenge of playing in tune with each other. Interestingly, if you looked at the position of the tuning slides on our instruments (all by the same maker, remember), you'd see a good bit of variation between us as we play together. None of us is ever pulled out more than a half inch or so, but between the furthest one in and the furthest one out there's usually a good quarter inch or more of difference. Patrick Olwell may have had a spot where he "meant" for the slide to be set, but I doubt that more than one of us ever would have the slide set there during a session. Yet we play in tune with one another. Probably not in perfect tune on a note by note basis, but good enough.

Another interesting thing: Over the course of the year, as the seasons change the positioning of my slide in order to play in tune with this session changes too. In the summertime, when the air is warm and moist, I'm pulled much further out than I am in the cold, dry mid-winter. If there is a spot where my slide was "meant" to be set, I'm probably only able to actually set it there maybe a quarter of the days of a year. The rest of the year, I need to work around it and compensate if I want to play in tune with everyone else.

My point, Loren? Simply that there are no absolutes in wooden flute making. There are compromises. And the best makers are the ones who can best deal with those compromises. Olwell is one of those guys. Don't know about you, as I've never seen one of your flutes, but your uncompromising position does make me wonder.

You completely missed my point John (could you yerself be a bit uncompromising in your interpretations of my posts?), perhaps the post I've added just above this one will clarify.......

Loren

[brotherwind]

Still with that said, I believe it's important for flute players to understand what is happing to the tuning of their flute when they start moving the slide from its ideal position.

How do you actually find out, where this position is, practically?

[flutefry]

I don't know the correct answer to Brotherwind's question, but I think the answer can be deduced.

Loren points out, pulling out the slide too much or pushing it in too much is bad for the internal tuning. So as long as one has a way of measuring the internal tuning, then one would just have to measure the tuning at different slide positions, and find the position(s) that give the best, or close enough to the best, internal tuning. I'd start with the slide fully in, and then pull it out in increments of 3mm or an 1/8th of an inch, each time noting the tuning. I'd expect that as I went from fully in to fully out, there would be a progression from less good relative tuning to better relative tuning of the back to less good again. I'd guess this could be done easily with a tuner, just noting the number of cents a note was sharp or flat relative to a standard. I'd also guess that the range of "close enough to optimal internal would be a about 6-8 (1/4 to 1/3 of an inch).

Loren also points out that it doesn't matter whether I blow sharp or flat to do this exercise as long as I am consistently sharp or flat (cuz that doesn't change the internal tuning of notes relative to each other). So I'd agree with him that it is worthwhile knowing where the flute has the best relative internal tuning. Once one knows that, then it is worthwhile to find the lip/headjoint position that allows you to play in tune with others.

Hugh

[Cathy Wilde]

NOW, LET'S ADD ANOTHER DIMENSION ..... .....

..... The fabulous, but occasionally mildly effective, stopgap measure of slightly pulling out the other joints (usually starting with the foot) to hopefully equalize the internal tuning .

Told ya it was !

[I.D.10-t]

Kind of makes you wonder how some of those one-piece fife corps play together with only a cork to adjust.

[jim stone]

Still with that said, I believe it's important for flute players to understand what is happing to the tuning of their flute when they start moving the slide from its ideal position.

How do you actually find out, where this position is, practically?

Another option is to ask the question of the maker.
Some of them do have an ideal position in mind,
certainly glad to tell you.

[tin tin]

What I'm suggesting is that as flute players, we should understand how our flutes operate, and specifically in this case, exactly what happens when we adjust the tuning slide, so that we can make informed choices.

You're right--my questions did take your remarks rather out of context.

And of course, flutes are designed to have the slide in a certain place--or at least within a certain range--for optimal results. The whole issue with A=435 Boehm flutes being copied and simply having the heads shortened for use at A=440 (rather than recalibrating the position of the tone holes) and the resultant embouchure techniques are a case in point.

Given their original purpose, to change the pitch of the flute from, say, A=427 to A=437, they're obsolete, but don't they still have a use in the modern context of standard pitch A=440?

I don't believe this is accurate, historically. I don't want to get too far off track since I've got limited time here, but historically, I don't believe the tuning slide was implemented in order to regularly span ranges as wide as you mention. Even today, on modern flutes, which are much less "tuning challenged/compromised" than our wooden flutes, the typical range the instrument is expected to span very well, is about half of that. (Flutes made in A=442 with a suggested range of A=440 to A=444, as I recall)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the tuning slide somewhat replaced the corps de rechange. I got the A=427 to a=437 range from this page: http://www.oldflutes.com/classical.htm
About halfway down, there's a picture of a Potter headjoint with a tuning slide.
Of course, given the effects of tuning slide motion that Loren clearly described, it seems to me a bit crazy to think that one flute could actually be played in tune across a 10Hz range. All the same, it's my understanding that was the original reason for the tuning slide.

[Denny]

NOW, LET'S ADD ANOTHER DIMENSION ..... .....

[Cathy Wilde]

MWAH-HAH-HAH-HAAAAH .....

[Cathy Wilde]

Kind of makes you wonder how some of those one-piece fife corps play together with only a cork to adjust.

Probably why fife corps mostly play outside?

[brotherwind]

I don't know the correct answer to Brotherwind's question, but I think the answer can be deduced.

Loren points out, pulling out the slide too much or pushing it in too much is bad for the internal tuning. So as long as one has a way of measuring the internal tuning, then one would just have to measure the tuning at different slide positions, and find the position(s) that give the best, or close enough to the best, internal tuning. I'd start with the slide fully in, and then pull it out in increments of 3mm or an 1/8th of an inch, each time noting the tuning. I'd expect that as I went from fully in to fully out, there would be a progression from less good relative tuning to better relative tuning of the back to less good again. I'd guess this could be done easily with a tuner, just noting the number of cents a note was sharp or flat relative to a standard. I'd also guess that the range of "close enough to optimal internal would be a about 6-8 (1/4 to 1/3 of an inch).

Loren also points out that it doesn't matter whether I blow sharp or flat to do this exercise as long as I am consistently sharp or flat (cuz that doesn't change the internal tuning of notes relative to each other). So I'd agree with him that it is worthwhile knowing where the flute has the best relative internal tuning. Once one knows that, then it is worthwhile to find the lip/headjoint position that allows you to play in tune with others.

Hugh

Well, that invokes large excel sheets with lots of silly numbers and me helpless in the middle.
Hey folks, no easy way out there. Or let's say "easier"?

Another option is to ask the question of the maker.
Some of them do have an ideal position in mind,
certainly glad to tell you.

Sounds quite reasonable.

Seriously. My problem with the tuner is that I automatically correct the pitch while looking at it. Maybe a second person can help there.