Moral Question--responses welcome

buddhu · Post by **buddhu** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:41 am

brewerpaul wrote:...This is not just some small personality quirk that you can overlook, like always wearing purple socks. This is a major personality/ethical flaw which calls everything else about the person into judgement...

I agree with Paul.

dwinterfield · Post by **dwinterfield** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:54 am

I'd have to re-examine my judgement that this in one of the best people I know.

I think what's missing from this discussion is an acknowledgement that we all have a "dark side" - thoughts, ideas, impulses, beliefs etc. that we may have that are also contrary to what we believe. For most of us, these ideas pop into our heads, uninvited and we find them repugnent. We don't share them and we don't act on them. I would not break off a valued friendship solely because someone shared that they have racist thoughts. However, I would want to know how they consider these thoughts. If would matter to me whether they found them distasteful and offensive or whether they found them warm and comforting.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:01 am

Anglorfin wrote:
djm wrote:Being born in the year of the Monkey, I would not be able to leave this one alone. I would first want to get beyond the generalisations and dig into the meat of the matter to find out just what specifically your friend has against Jews; what started all this. Was it from a mother or other respected adult that the initial nastiness stems? Was there a real negative experience this individual experienced involving Jews?

And more to the point, what exactly is it that this person fears from Jews? They aren't the president of your country or anything, so government conspiracies don't really count for much. What, on a personal level, does this person fear from Jews?

I doubt that they will be able to come up with anything to substantiate their professed views, and the more obviously baseless their stand becomes through discussion, the less likelihood that the subject will ever be raised between you again.

djm
That's precisely why I don't understand how this person could be so 'intelligent' in the first place. It seems so out of character for any intelligent or reasonable person to believe in conspiracy theories without enough empirical data to support it.

Again though the racism I can excuse if for nothing else then solely because you can argue that it just part of someone's ethnic, regional, or family background. But it's not too often that someone grows up hearing propaganda about a consiracy theory all their lives. That means at some point during their mature life they would have had to come to this conclusion SOMEHOW and it just confuses me because of the apparent irrationality of their decision.

Me too. It boggles my mind that somebody could do this sort of thing.
But apparently high intelligence is no barrier. I've spent some of my
life at places like Harvard and MIT, where brilliantly intelligent
people and crazy views appear to grow on trees. If you look
at the organizations promoting the weirdest conspiracy theories,
some of them are headed by professional philosophers,
hard-headed logical types who are publishing in cognitive
science, theory of knowledge, logic and so on.

It's part of what fills me with despair. Not only do intelligent
people do this, people with doctorates in disciplines dedicated
to detecting confused thinking do it. And these folks
are indeed razor sharp--except when it comes to arguments
concerning the wogs. The one thing I note
is that there is considerable affect involved, usually.
These folks are mad at the wogs, or whomever, and
their thinking feeds on anger.

Human beings are morally complex! It's mind-boggling.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:31 am

buddhu wrote: If the person is, as you said, one of the best people you know, then I can only imagine that the apparent racism is solely the result of the almost cult-like influence of some conspiracy theories, and that your friend's judgment has been damaged by this influence.

I am personally appalled by conspiracy theories, and you're right--
they have an almost hypnotic and cultlike influence on a lot of
people. Also they tap into anger and they feed it. It's
irrational stuff that's deeply seductive, indeed, addictive.

I'm not personally offended by anti-Semitic stuff, but I find
it repugnant, especially when it comes from highly intelligent
and educated people. I think a lot of people underestimate
how much anti-Semitism there is in the world. When I lived in
Austria it was common chit chat that 'the Jews pick the
American president,' 'the Jews run the world..' The story
that Monica Lewinski was an agent of the Jews was
published in a couple of German papers and widely
believed.

This is one of the things that really bothers me about
conspiracy theories about anybody at all. I know where
that thinking leads, maybe not today or tomorrow, but
sooner or later. I know who the conspirators will turn
out to be.

Here's a dialogue:

The residents at a Jewish hospital in Chicago during the Depression,
start a clinic with a sliding scale for poor people, so that
folks who have a tough time affording medical care can
get treatment.

A: Of course one of the real reasons they're doing this is to
steal the patients of Gentile doctors.

B. Gee, I don't know... They say they're doing it for humanitarian
reasons. Why not?

A. Well look....These residents are going to be practicing in
the Chicago area, probably. And they will need patients--that's
something they want, obviously. And they know that a number
of people they treat in their clinic will follow them into
private practice. So probably one of their reasons for setting
up the clinic is to get patients for their own practice.

B. Well it's true they want to build up a practice and it's true they
probably realize that some of their patients in this clinic will
follow them, but does that really show this is probably one
of the reasons they set up the clinic?

Suppose
I see a building on fire, kids are screaming from the window.
I run inside and save them. I know I'll be considered a hero,
and I'd like that, no question.
Does that show that probably one of my reasons for running
into the building was so that
people will call me a hero?

A. Hey, I'm not saying this is the ONLY reason these doctors
have. Probably the humanitarian reasons they give have
something to do with it. But let's not be naive. They want
something for themselves and they know this is
a way to get it. Of course you can hardly
expect them to say so.

Good businessmen, those Jews...

This sort of reasoning, about anybody at all,
scares me.

avanutria · Post by **avanutria** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:31 am

emmline wrote:Maybe I would explain, frankly and clearly to this friend, that my views on this one subject differ from hers/his to the point of irreconcilability. To me, perhaps it would be this person's ability to respect my perspective--and therefore to avoid offending me with references to this prejudice--which would make or break the friendship.

This was my first reaction too. But I'm not a Jew, and so I started to think about how it might be if I were a member of the group under discussion.

Here in the UK, I am an immigrant. But at several gatherings in the past few years I have heard friends of mine talking about how terrible it is that so many immigrants are coming into the country and ruining England. These people don't seem to remember that I am a member of the group in question, and it does make me feel awkward when it happens. Sometimes I feel like I should speak up and say "hey, I'm an immigrant too" - and I think I have once or twice, but it's met with a laugh and "oh, I don't mean you" or something like that.

To answer the original question - I think any future friendship would depend a lot on past history. Have I been friends with this person for a very long time? Does he/she know that I am a part of the group that he/she finds so distasteful? Does he/she care that I find such comments hurtful, or is he/she more concerned with airing his/her views?

If I have been friends with this person for a very long time, and he/she knows that I am a member of this group, and the issue has not come up until now, I would wonder what made him/her feel that it was necessary to discuss this topic with me. I might even try to ask him/her why he/she brought up the subject.

A future friendship would depend on whether or not I was listened to, and whether or not my feelings were considered. I don't know if I could be good friends here with someone who really hated "All Americans" but liked me. It would depend on the other factors. But I couldn't be friends with someone who refused to listen to my concerns or show consideration for my feelings.

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:43 am

Human beings are morally complex! It's mind-boggling

(aside: more fun posters here)

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:02 am

My thanks to everybody for these messages,
which really are a help.

I favor staying friends and simply bracketing this part
of our relationship. Plenty left to talk about.
My friend is not aggressive about this stuff,
in fact. It' just very disconcerting. But also
I note my own tendency to wish to enforce
my own views about 'right' thinking! I am,
in my own way, more aggressive.

It's too bad, isn't it, that we can't talk about
politics much. I don't mean here but
everywhere. But there's no question it's
divisive and does more harm than good.
Not 'right speech,'--not conducive
to enlightenment, not an improvement
on silence.

I think a lot of people need someone to hate,
maybe it's the unhappiness in their own lives,
and conspiracy theories feed into that.
I'm convinced that intelligence, education,
logical ability, and even a kindly and compassionate
disposition are no guarantee against
this.

Really grateful for all these posts; much
appreciated.

I asked my wife what to do and she said:
'Forget about it.' So I will.

BillChin · Post by **BillChin** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:11 am

buddhu wrote:
brewerpaul wrote:...This is not just some small personality quirk that you can overlook, like always wearing purple socks. This is a major personality/ethical flaw which calls everything else about the person into judgement...
I agree with Paul.

Unfortunately, I believe 80% to 90% of the worlds population have these kind of beliefs. It is strongest against Jews or against particular races. It may not be as extreme as depicted in the original post, but in most societies Anti-Semites are the rule not the exception. In many other societies, anti-gay beliefs and stereotypes are the rule not the exception. A person that can not be friends with those people are effectively curtaining off that percentage of the worlds population.

Those that live in diverse open societies have a difficult time imagining such a high percentage. Especially those like the original poster who live in an academic setting where political correctness is the rule of the day.

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:13 am

jim stone wrote:It's part of what fills me with despair. Not only do intelligent
people do this, people with doctorates in disciplines dedicated
to detecting confused thinking do it.

This is interesting to me. (Excellent use of alliteration, by the way...)
I recently read an article about a physicist who is trying to get more
funding put into theories besides String Theory. He was appalled that
many of his colleagues were so devoted to String Theory. All other
Theories of Everything were roundly dismissed before they could be
fleshed out. Many of these colleagues had rejected religious dogma
on a logical basis, yet they were adhering to the dogma of String
Theory. This surprised him, since these were supposed to be logical,
open-minded scientists...

No matter how intelligent, each of us is an emotional creature.
The trick is to strive to realize that so we may classify what drives
us, and reasses our motives if we find they are purely emotional.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:38 am

I have a couple of close friends who occasionally make derogatory remarks about certain ethnic groups without ever expressing deep-seated hatred. Mostly, they are comfortable with other ethnic groups and they are not even a little bit extreme. One even chastises her father who makes more blatant racist remarks about ethnic groups she has many friends in, presumably to wind her up since he isn't extreme either and probably doesn't even believe what he is saying. They know how I feel about bigotry and don't usually say anything much in my presence. Sometimes the objection is to perceived rudeness, and different ethnic groups do have different assertiveness thresholds. We talk pretty openly about this stuff on the rare occasions when they express views I don't like. Even my own parents could say things that bugged me; they came from a generation in which religious and racial bigotry was rife and we were a religiously and ethnically mixed extended family. My parents showed no bigotry in actual dealings with members of other groups and didn't express hostility behind their backs. It didn't really extend to much more than the occasional remark that wasn't PC.

My favourite band from the early 80s The Specials/Special AKA who you would all be familiar with from their song, 'Free Nelson Mandela,' have a song called 'Racist Friend.' The main couplet is this:

If you have a racist friend
Now is the time for that friendship to end

For reasons evident from my first paragraph, I sympathise with this but feel it is a bit too hard line to live by with complete consistency. My vegetarian friends tolerate me, although I probably couldn't and wouldn't actually offer an intellectual defence of meat-eating. I think few if any of us can live the moral life with complete consistency.

Jim's example is so extreme though. My first thought is that that person is too extreme for me to trust with anyhting important. My guess is this: if they get one very important thing that wrong, I couldn't and wouldn't trust their judgment on other issues. I can only think of one circumstance that would make me change this view. If I had proof that their systematic bigotry was somehow quarantined from everything else they believe, I might be able to trust their judgment. But somehow this is such a huge disconnect with reason.

We all have to be very careful though. once or twice i've been taken to task for saying purportedly bigoted things when in fact I was just using colourful language to criticise people who were fair game. On one occasion, a Jewish friend of mine objected to a term I was using for murderous protestant hard men in Northern Ireland—I was using a term which Republican sympathisers, which I was at the time, would have used, although I no longer backed violence in the struggle. I protested that I was only talking about murderers, that some of my best friends were Irish protestants (true), and that I myself had had a protestant upbringing. I didn't lose my friend but I learnt a lesson about being more careful and felt really embarrassed that I'd left myself open to that sort of misunderstanding. It can be mighty hard though. I was close enough to the ANC to know people who'd been blown apart or maimed by letter bombs and it's hard to watch your language in the face of that.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:09 am

I repeat this true story.
What does one say about the Polish girl?
She is a bigot, no question, and she does
one of the best things
anyone has ever done. Is she a bad person?
A good person? I suppose she is some sort
of saint.... And she wasn't alone.

Please read this:

In 1943 a young Polish woman, about 20,
was walking past the Warsaw ghetto when
she saw a young Jewish woman, the same
age, who had crawled through the barbed
wire. The Jewish girl was lying
on the sidewalk, too exhausted and
famished to move.

The Polish girl gathered up the Jewish
girl, took her home (where she
lived with her mother) and hid her. The
penalty for doing such a thing was death;
indeed, hundreds of such Poles were shot.
Also anti-Semitism in Poland was so
widespread that your neighbours, if they
suspected you of hiding Jews, would likely
inform the Nazis. After the war, elements
of the Polish resistance, which had
fought the Nazis, went about murdering
Poles who had helped Jews.

After a month the neighbours became
suspicious. 'You must go,' the Polish
girl told the Jewish girl, 'or else
we will all be shot. But I'll go with you.'
So for the next two years the Polish
girl and the Jewish girl hid in the
forest, slept in haystacks, appearing
at people's doors at dusk to beg for
food.

One night as they were lying in
a haystack, the Jewish girl asked the
Polish girl: 'What do you think of
Jews?' 'Jews are terrible people!'
the Polish girl answered vehemently.
'They cut the throats of gentile
children to use their blood in the
Passover matza. They're all rich.
They contol everything...' She was,
you see, a virulent anti-Semite,
who hated Jews.

The Jewish girl burst into tears.
'You're not like that, of course!'
the Polish girl said.

I suppose the moral is that strong bigotry
against The Wogs
is consistent with
saintlike compassion for
individuals. And vice versa.
Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

koktach · Post by **koktach** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:53 am

It seems so out of character for any intelligent or reasonable person to believe in conspiracy theories without enough empirical data to support it.

Empirism is overrated.

It's quite possible for a person to be the most loving, compashionate, etc. person in the world, but at the same time ignorant and judgemental on at least one issue. Now answer honestly to yourself, is there a group of people that you dislike without any "rational" reason.

For me the group is, hmm..., whould "mods" be the right word in english. You know the people that are allways dresses up and "neat", tons of gel for males and kilos of makeup for girls... well I hope you know what I mean. I often find myself drawn away from thist type of people and I thik low of them as soon as I see them. Despite having a great interest of social sciences, being a "coltural relativist" (in the most broadest defeinition of the term), often procaliming that there is no lesser culture, yet I judge people from my own surroundings.

What to do in that situation. My opinion is that you shouldn't stop talking about it. That will show if your friendship can overcome differences.[/quote]

Ro3b · Post by **Ro3b** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:19 pm

Suppose you have an uncommonly kind and intelligent
friend,

The key word here is "friend." Which to me means someone that I'd be entirely comfortable in saying "are you out of your effing MIND?" to.

I don't think bigots are necessarily evil people, but they definitely are ignorant. They become evil when they cling to their ignorance. This person has been up-front with you about her beliefs. Can you be the same way with her about yours?

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:01 pm

Ro3b wrote:This person has been up-front with you about her beliefs. Can you be the same way with her about yours?

Good point! Also, we don't actually know what the originator's thoughts/beliefs are. He has not clearly stated them here. We are left to assume what he thinks. Worse, we are left to assume that he is right.

djm

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:01 pm

jim stone wrote:I repeat this true story.
What does one say about the Polish girl?
She is a bigot, no question, and she does
one of the best things
anyone has ever done. Is she a bad person?
A good person? I suppose she is some sort
of saint.... And she wasn't alone.

OK, let me try. I don't have an analysis and I'd distrust anyone who did. Questions like is she a good or bad person strike me as somewhat loony. A moral philosophy that insists they must have an answer is a moral philosophy developed in a vacuum. Utilitarians, for example, would insist that we somehow weigh the good against the bad. This would be not only impossible, it would be utterly wrong-headed. She is simultaneously saintly in one respect whilst being inexcusably wrong-headed in another. The tension between these views cannot be resolved. Life is sometimes like that.

Just a few further observations then.

This isn't like the idea that a Hitler can be partially excused if he loved children or if he performed isolated acts of extreme kindness. Nothing can excuse a Hitler and nothing can change the fact that he was, all things considered, a monster.

Anybody who condemns the Polish girl out of hand because they buy the hard line expressed in the Special AKA song is an unhelpful fanatic—there must be room for giving her some credit.

If I were the Jewish girl, I think (how would I really know) that I'd have continued to trust her, probably love her in a funny sort of way, but I'd have been somewhat devastated for the rest of my life. I don't think we are equipped to respond sanely to this sort of situation.

A case like this came to light recently in Australia. A Jewish boy had escaped from what seemed like certain death at the hands of the Nazis in the Ukraine. He lived alone in the forest and depended on the mercy of strangers for food, over and above what he could find. He was eventually handed over to the SS for shooting but they decided instead to treat him as a mascot and bring him up—he must have looked enough like a gentile to make this seem like a good idea. Since he couldn't be brought up properly on the move, he was eventually brought up by a Nazi in, I think, Latvia who migrated with the boy to Australia after the war. They remained close friends until the older man died. The boy had suppressed memories of his earlier childhood but kept having dreams that made him aware that there was something back then that was mysterious. He confided in one of his sons who had unmistakably Jewish features and suspected the truth. After investigation the story came out. The man's father had survived the killing of the family and remarried after the war, so he had a family of half brothers and sisters in the Ukraine. He went back to the Ukraine, met his family and had his true identity confirmed by villagers who remembered him. He was rather disturbed by the story however. His other children weren't best pleased by discovering the truth either.