Moral Question--responses welcome

[Anglorfin]

I find it hard to believe that the person you described as warm and intelligent would even believe such a conspiracy theory or any type of blanket generalization. As for compassion I know plenty of racist people who at least wouldn't lift a finger to harm anyone. At best there would be individual cases that would move these people to take action and help.

As to the real question of if I would remain friends with this person the answer is a difficult one. The actual racism doesn't bother me as much as the underlying ignorance. Which of course is what all racism stems from but in this particular case it runs deeper if the person disputes historical facts just to bolster his/her argument.

[Ostrich Caller]

I like the "Ann Landers" or "Dear Abby" approach. Ask yourself if you're better off with or without your friend. There is no correct answer, only your answer.

[peeplj]

That is a real dilemma.

My own thoughts would center around the fact that you value the friendship, that you value her as a friend.

As much as you can, ignore it, and I would say trying to avoid the subject might be prudent.

If the subject comes up, then you might explain to her that even the closest friends will not always agree on every subject, and that you have your own thoughts on the subject.

Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it.

Good luck, Jim. I hope you can avoid hurting her, and can also avoid being hurt by her.

--James

[djm]

Being born in the year of the Monkey, I would not be able to leave this one alone. I would first want to get beyond the generalisations and dig into the meat of the matter to find out just what specifically your friend has against Jews; what started all this. Was it from a mother or other respected adult that the initial nastiness stems? Was there a real negative experience this individual experienced involving Jews?

And more to the point, what exactly is it that this person fears from Jews? They aren't the president of your country or anything, so government conspiracies don't really count for much. What, on a personal level, does this person fear from Jews?

I doubt that they will be able to come up with anything to substantiate their professed views, and the more obviously baseless their stand becomes through discussion, the less likelihood that the subject will ever be raised between you again.

djm

[Redwolf]

I would really have a hard time remaining friends with such a person. Perhaps that's my shortcoming, but having grown up in a community where racism was both commonplace and, for the most part, accepted, I have zero tolerance for it. I have to say that hearing that kind of thing coming from the mouth of a friend would sour the friendship pretty quickly.

Redwolf

[anniemcu]

Suppose you have an uncommonly kind and intelligent
friend, a warm and generous person who has gone
out of his/her way to help you and whom you can
count on. S/he is very clear headed and has excellent
judgement about people and can see very readily
through bad arguments and silly views. S/he's highly
educated, in fact. One of the best people you know.

One day your friend confides in you that the Jewish
conspiracy runs the world. S/he is
captivated by
conspiracy theories about jews. S/he believes the Lewininski
scandal was a Jewish conspiracy to bring down
Clinton, for instance. When you object that other explanations
of what happened are more than adequate s/he
sneers: 'Don't be naive! It's no accident she was
Jewish!' Also s/he disbelieves
in the Holocaust, it's been much exaggerated.
On this one subject, s/he proceeds by insinuations and innuendos,
smirks and winks.

Then s/he goes back to being the kind, clear-headed,
generous person you've always known.
Except for being a virulent
anti-Semite (which s/he generally keeps to herself),
s/he's the person whose judgement
you most trust.

What do you do? Do you stay friends? Or what?

I went through a very similar scenario, only it was my own father who seemingly suddenly turned so vehemently anti-semetic. It was a very rude awakening on my part, but it really just proved to me how little about him I actually knew.

I would suggest the Serenity Prayer, myself. ... and steer clear of certain topics.

[peeplj]

I would really have a hard time remaining friends with such a person. Perhaps that's my shortcoming, but having grown up in a community where racism was both commonplace and, for the most part, accepted, I have zero tolerance for it. I have to say that hearing that kind of thing coming from the mouth of a friend would sour the friendship pretty quickly.

Redwolf

I undestand what you are saying.

I'm not saying you are wrong.

I am saying that I have learned the hard way in my life, and in my own experiences, that we cannot change the people we love.

We make a choice, to either love them as they are, faults and all, and hope they'll do the same for us;--or we decide that we can no longer love them as we now know them to be.

It's sad when a close friendship falls apart, but sometimes it cannot be helped. Sometimes the best you can do is try to keep the good memories.

I have been there, when I was no longer strong enough to tolerate the sadness of what I had once hoped could have been and then had learned could never be.

But in the back of my mind, there's always the question--what if I had waited just one more day?

Best wishes to all,

--James

[Anglorfin]

Being born in the year of the Monkey, I would not be able to leave this one alone. I would first want to get beyond the generalisations and dig into the meat of the matter to find out just what specifically your friend has against Jews; what started all this. Was it from a mother or other respected adult that the initial nastiness stems? Was there a real negative experience this individual experienced involving Jews?

And more to the point, what exactly is it that this person fears from Jews? They aren't the president of your country or anything, so government conspiracies don't really count for much. What, on a personal level, does this person fear from Jews?

I doubt that they will be able to come up with anything to substantiate their professed views, and the more obviously baseless their stand becomes through discussion, the less likelihood that the subject will ever be raised between you again.

djm

That's precisely why I don't understand how this person could be so 'intelligent' in the first place. It seems so out of character for any intelligent or reasonable person to believe in conspiracy theories without enough empirical data to support it.

Again though the racism I can excuse if for nothing else then solely because you can argue that it just part of someone's ethnic, regional, or family background. But it's not too often that someone grows up hearing propaganda about a consiracy theory all their lives. That means at some point during their mature life they would have had to come to this conclusion SOMEHOW and it just confuses me because of the apparent irrationality of their decision.

[buddhu]

Jim, in case this discussion strays into territory the management would rather avoid, you may like to bear in mind that the poli/relig annex is available at http://cnfpoli.informe.com/ in case of unrest or lockdowns etc.

As for your dilemma: that is a painful position to be in.

I am on record as saying that I would not become or remain friends with an overt and obvious racist. If the person is, as you said, one of the best people you know, then I can only imagine that the apparent racism is solely the result of the almost cult-like influence of some conspiracy theories, and that your friend's judgment has been damaged by this influence. If that is the case, then I would suggest remaining friends and trying to assist as one might in deconditioning the victim of any mind-controlling cult.

On the other hand, if the friend seems to have 'rationally' arrived at these attitudes after weighing evidence objectively, and entertains racist attitudes despite being in command of his/her normal powers of discrimination and judgment, then I would suggest that this may not, after all, be one of the best people you know.

If I found racism were a genuine, strong attitude in a friend of mine, I would have to withdraw from the relationship. I do not believe in blind loyalty any more than I do in blind faith. There needs to be a basis for both. If someone demonstrates hateful attitudes and will not be persuaded otherwise, then what common ground is there upon which to sustain a friendship? To me, a continued association would seem almost a betrayal of my black/Jewish/female/gay/ginger/etc etc etc friends (select or insert group which frequently takes BS from nasty people).

YMMV.

[kkrell]

Change their meds. There! Now we've gone the medical advice route and we can be locked.

Kevin Krell

[chrisoff]

Every now and then my Dad will come out with a remark or a joke that is pretty racist. It's not like he hates immigrants or anything, he's just spent most of his life working on building sites and reading rupert murdoch's xenophobic newspapers and neither of those promotes a very enlightened viewpoint on the world.

So we'll all be sitting having dinner or watching TV and a news story about asylum seekers will come on and he'll start talking about "them" and making various xenophobic claims regarding "them" that he's read about in the sun. Or he'll use racist words to describe people.

Generally when this happens, my brother and I will sit in shock for a second before we start telling him why he's wrong and explaining the bits the murdoch press leave out. Like the difference between an illegal immigrant and an asylum seeker. He'll listen and usually accepts what we say in the end.

It's upsetting to hear someone close to me talk like that, but I know he's not really a hateful person. He just buys into the fear that gets stirred up by sections of the press. There'd be no good shunning the man just because he believe's something due to ignorance, instead I make sure that no remark goes free and everytime he shocks us we try and change his mind.

Unless your friend is pulling on white cloaks and lighting crosses I would suggest sticking with them. Everyone has flaws, racism is one that can be challenged and beliefs can be changed through education.

Although if they do a David Icke and start believing in lizard people ruling the earth then it might be time to walk away...

[kkrell]

Although if they do a David Icke and start believing in lizard people ruling the earth then it might be time to walk away...

What do you have against lizard people?

Kevin Krell

[chrisoff]

Although if they do a David Icke and start believing in lizard people ruling the earth then it might be time to walk away...

What do you have against lizard people?

Kevin Krell

They come over here, stealing our jobs...

[missy]

I guess it would matter to me what the basis of the hate is (and I feel that in most cases, true racism is hate). Is the hate based on indoctrination (they were raised to believe this way)? Is it based on misinformation (you can find anything on the internet)? Or is it based on fear (not really knowing individuals of the "race" or seeing individuals vs. group)?

If it's based on fear, that I can work with. The other two aren't as easy. Not that these three reasons are mutually exclusive.

And if the person isn't open to hearing my opinion, it would be very hard to continue the friendship. I could continue the aquaintence, but not the friendship.

[brewerpaul]

Jim, I wonder does s/he know that you're a Jew?

.

I'm not sure from his account that I get it that Jim is Jewish...
Personally, being Jewish myself, knowing this about my so-called friend would blow that relationship irrevocably* out of the water. I would make my religion/culture known to that person and get the issue out in the open. I can't imagine him or her wanting to be friends with someone as odious as me any more. I would listen to exactly one of those anti-semitic rants and that would be the end. This is not just some small personality quirk that you can overlook, like always wearing purple socks. This is a major personality/ethical flaw which calls everything else about the person into judgement.

*well, there's the off chance that finding out that I was Jewish would cause this person to reconsider his/her anti-semitism, seeing what a wonderful person a Jew can be. But I wouldn't hold my breath.