an outsiders questions about itm

[mutepointe]

could someone please reduce my ignorance:
1. why is there so little vocals in itm?
2. if i'm correct about #1, then how did the songs all get those rather peculiar names that they have and why do they have those rather peculair names?
3. do singers show up at sessions?
4. are there words to these songs and is it that just nobody is singing along?

any information and/or controversy this could raise would be greatly appreciated.

[Bretton]

could someone please reduce my ignorance:
1. why is there so little vocals in itm?
2. if i'm correct about #1, then how did the songs all get those rather peculiar names that they have and why do they have those rather peculair names?
3. do singers show up at sessions?
4. are there words to these songs and is it that just nobody is singing along?

any information and/or controversy this could raise would be greatly appreciated.

1. I'm certainly no expert, but I believe that most/many of the ITM styles of ornamentation, and even entire tunes, are drawn from traditional Irish singing (Sean-nos singing).

2. no idea

3. Yes.

4. Yes, probably, if you're playing a _song_, but maybe not if you're playing a _tune_.



I'm sure other replies will follow...

[Jayhawk]

What many folks on the board play, and refer to as ITM, are Irish dance tunes - jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc. There are plenty of Irish folk songs out there, but most sessions feature mainly tunes - but a lot of that depends on the session.

For example, the few times Connie Dover has dropped in on our session, she sings (who wouldn't want her to?). We have a few guitarists who mainly back, and they'll drop a tune from time to time, too, and we like that.

However, for most of the tunes we play, there are no words other than the title (if we can remember that). BTW - who knows where some of those great tune and song titles come from...but they sure add a little color from time to time.

Sessions around my part are primarily about musicians playing tunes together, having a good time, and searching for those emphemeral moments where what we're playing is transcendent. Singing is much more of a solo affair, and we don't play solo tunes (unless someone is introducing a new tune) so we tend not to have many songs sung.

Eric

[Pat Cannady]

If you're curious and have the time, read this book, it's a good start:

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Dances-Irel ... 0853425094

You might also try this one, although it's a bit pricey:

http://www.amazon.com/Companion-Irish-T ... 211&sr=1-1

[Tony McGinley]

ITM is drawn from two distinct traditions.

1. The Oral or sung music. This was mainly Old Style
or "Sean Nós" distinctive style of singing in Gaelic.
And also Folk Ballads which bemoaned the plight of the
Irish under various war lords and through two famines
and a massive dispora. This accounts for the plaintive
nature of many Irish tunes

2. The Instrumental Tradition. The main instrument to
influence the tradition up to about 200 years ago would
have been the Irish Harp. O'Carolan, O'Cathain etc.
would represent the peak of the achievement. The Uillean
Pipes was another major influence. The rest came in much
later. The Bodhran only 45 years ago and the low whistle
30 years ago or so.

The ITM music styles come in two major formats also:

a. Dance music. Music composed especially to be
danced to. Jigs, Reels, Polkas, Slides, Slip Jigs etc.

b. Songs and Ballads. The Blogs of the day which told
various stories or inspired rebellion etc.

To attempt to answer your questions:

Answer Number 1. Sessions. Sessions favour dance music
which can be played by many together. Everything has to
stop or slow down for a singer - and that annoys many!!

Answer Number 2. The Irish are peculiar and like to be
quirky - but some names are after the tunes composer.
i.e. Paddy Fahey's No 2.

Answer Number 3. They do if they know where the session
is being held - but most of the time people can keep the secret.

Answer Number 4. Yes if it's songs you are talking about, and
yes again. But if it's dance tunes no and no!!

Try to get a hold of Tomás Ó Canainn's Traditional Music in
Ireland. Ir is considered an authority on the subject. Published
by ossian.

[MTGuru]

4. Yes, probably, if you're playing a _song_, but maybe not if you're playing a _tune_.

Yes, that's a pet peeve for a lot of people. It's a kind of shibboleth, that calling a "tune" a "song" marks you as an outsider or n00b. More seriously, I guess making the distinction indicates you understand that there's both a vocal and instrumental tradition, and a difference between the two that affects how songs, dance tunes, and airs are performed.

There is some crossover. A song melody may be performed as an instrumental piece, in which case it is usually referred to as an air. And it's not uncommon for tune melodies to be adapted as songs by putting lyrics to them. There's also the tradition of lilting or "mouth music", in which dance tunes are sung wordlessly using a variety of traditional syllables.

The sessions I attend are strongly instrumental, though very occasionally a local singer might show up and do a song or two. But some of the instrument players are also fine singers, and in the course of a session night they might be asked to "give us a song", almost always at the request of the rest of the group. The other players may then join in with a gentle harmony, and it's often a very fine experience.

I have the impression that in some areas of Ireland where musicians may be more likely also to know a traditional song repertoire, punctuating a night of session tunes with songs may be more common.

As for tune names, most of them are just fanciful and obscure in origin. But in some cases the origin is known, documented by either the composer or by anecdotal tradition. For example, Ed Reavy gave detailed explanations for his names. Often, album notes will give explanations of recorded tune names. And tunes like "The Gold Ring", "Calliope House", "Dusty Windowsills", to cite a few, have stories associated with them. A good source for this information is the Fiddler's Companion, which often gives whatever background is available: www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/

Here's my question: Why do some people write without capitalization?

[BigDavy]

Hi mutepoint

Some nice Irish singing,

Cara Dillon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8mxuOu5WE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7lfKixQ_s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmK5WDQ3kUs

Niamh Parsons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLSYZ2UqMqg

Clannad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II2h9bfpj6g

David

[djm]

One of my favourite Irish singers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFRCWg_ ... ed&search=

I wish YT had more.

djm

[BigDavy]

Hi deej

A couple of vids to annoy you . Warning STM not ITM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XUTuxSHRUY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7k29BvFOo

This one is definitely ITM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2jca0s-04

One for JES.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKfp7_G7UlQ

David

[s1m0n]

1. why is there so little vocals in itm?

Because the ITM that we think of as 'celtic music' is largely dance music.

And in fact, in previous eras--when widespread poverty and isolation meant that Instruments were hard to acquire--a lot of Irish dance music was sung (or 'lilted'). Lilting is the practice of singing dance melodies with nonsense syllables.

If you read Packie Manus Byrne's memoir (as ghosted by this forum's SteveJ/BrotherSteve), you'll learn that the fiddle tradition in much of Donegal began pretty much in the early part of last century, and that even in Packie's youth there were far more lilters than there were fidllers/whistlers, etc.

~~

Instrumental dance music is, I suspect, makes it easier to solve 'the problem of Authenticity' for outsiders than do songs, which may account for the relative distinction in popularity since the great folk scare.

Learning to sing a long sean nos song in Irish isn't for the faint of heart or the dabbler, but we do have a fighting chance of learning to play a reel with the appropriate degree of brio.

[mutepointe]

well, that answers all that for me. thanks. i had no ideas the troubles that irish folks faced. tomorrow, i'll listen to the music links.

to answer guru's question: i type without capitalization for fun things that i get to do. that all started with the efficiency of computer geeks typing. i type a lot for work too and always have to be forma. for informal e mails at work, i've got folks doing without capitalization, even my boss. try it sometimes, it's become two different mindsets for me.

someone mentioned german. i also took german (immediately after a spanish class in college) all their capitalizations drove me nuts at the time and flowed into my spanish and english grammar. i could speak a sentence in three different languages that semester and my notes were even worse.

[Cayden]

Interesting choices of 'traditional' singers.

Maybe it's not bad to look at compilations like Around the Hills of Clare to get a handle on 'traditional' singing. Only last sunday I spent a fine night with music and loads of singing by local singers, some of whom can be heard on the CD hiding behind the link.

[I.D.10-t]

How does Thomas Moore and the poems that he wrote for tunes fit into ITM.

Thomas Moore

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8187

[Cayden]

He doesn't.

A number of articles looking at him appeared in the Irish Times recently, unfortunately they're subscriber's content only so linking failed.

[talasiga]

........
b. Songs and Ballads. The Blogs of the day which told
various stories or inspired rebellion etc.

...........

for example, this type of song sung by Dolores Keane, a singer I like

BTW, mutepoint, notice how all the songs sung by the singers have a tune ......