Olwell medium versus large hole models

[Loren]

I tend to play a little flat, so having a slide is nice if I'm playing along with anyone.

You really should lick that habit, since compensating via use of the tuning slide throws the whole flute out of tune with itself, by varying degrees across the scale, causing you to have to lip, roll, or otherwise compensate more as you play. This may not be clear a person as he tunes up/down to a note or three, in preparation to play with others or to a reference, however it really does make you have to do more work in the long run, keeping the whole scale in tune with itself as you play, and it lessens the liklihood that you'll ever get your pitch up.

Better to find out where a given flute was meant to have the tuning slide set, mark that spot in some fashion, or make a simple measuring device (make an additional couple of marks on your swab stick which you can then hold up to the bands at the tuning slide) and then learn to play the instrument up to pitch where it was made to play best in-tune with itself.

I don't expect you to take that advice Chas (old dogs and new tricks etc) however for other players out there not yet so set in their ways, that's my perspective, as a maker.


Loren

[cocusflute]

Better to find out where a given flute was meant to have the tuning slide set

That "meant" is curious. Wasn't that "ideal" position determined by a human being blowing into the flute and looking at a tuning gauge of some sort, or watching a stroboscope while playing?
Or is there a mathematical formula involved that eliminates the human factor in determining the "proper" position of the slide? That would be the Platonic ideal "A=440," regardless of the flute-maker's embouchure.
Don't flute-makers blow sharp or flat, as do the rest of us? Don't we have slides to address that issue?

[Loren]

Better to find out where a given flute was meant to have the tuning slide set

That "meant" is curious. Wasn't that "ideal" position determined by a human being blowing into the flute and looking at a tuning gauge of some sort, or watching a stroboscope while playing?
Or is there a mathematical formula involved that eliminates the human factor in determining the "proper" position of the slide? That would be the Platonic ideal "A=440," regardless of the flute-maker's embouchure.
Don't flute-makers blow sharp or flat, as do the rest of us? Don't we have slides to address that issue?

No, we (players of non-modern wooden flutes) don't have slides to address that issue, we have slides to address the issue of occasionally being forced to play "in-tune" with fixed pitched instruments.

Altering the length of a flute by use of the tuning slide changes the relationship of all the notes of the scale by various percentages, rather than an equal percentage, so compensating for significantly sharp or flat playing, by adjusting the tuning slide throws the instrument out of tune with itself.

You're just being argumentative, and you know full well that when someone knows they play sharp or flat consistently, the answer is to correct the problem with one's playing technique, rather than to start yanking the tuning slide way in or out. But then you just like to disagree with me.


Loren

[tin tin]

Altering the length of a flute by use of the tuning slide changes the relationship of all the notes of the scale by various percentages, rather than an equal percentage, so compensating for significantly sharp or flat playing, by adjusting the tuning slide throws the instrument out of tune with itself.

Absolutely, but are you suggesting that tuning slides are obsolete and unnecessary?

Given their original purpose, to change the pitch of the flute from, say, A=427 to A=437, they're obsolete, but don't they still have a use in the modern context of standard pitch A=440?

Occasionally, one does need to make some small adjustments, and I find it's easier to do so with a slide than without. I usually make a small adjustment or two over the course of a session as my flute warms up. (I'm talking maybe up to 1/8" or so total movement.)

If there's no slide, what about the gap that's created when adjusting a head and tenon arrangement? (Maybe the announcement on the London Tube is directed at flute players: "Mind the gap.")

[monkey587]

No, we (players of non-modern wooden flutes) don't have slides to address that issue, we have slides to address the issue of occasionally being forced to play "in-tune" with fixed pitched instruments.

Altering the length of a flute by use of the tuning slide changes the relationship of all the notes of the scale by various percentages, rather than an equal percentage, so compensating for significantly sharp or flat playing, by adjusting the tuning slide throws the instrument out of tune with itself.

You're just being argumentative, and you know full well that when someone knows they play sharp or flat consistently, the answer is to correct the problem with one's playing technique, rather than to start yanking the tuning slide way in or out. But then you just like to disagree with me.


Loren

Is there a way you'd recommend to determine the optimal pitch/tuning slide placement for an antique instrument of unknown pitch standard?

[chas]

I tend to play a little flat, so having a slide is nice if I'm playing along with anyone.

I don't expect you to take that advice Chas (old dogs and new tricks etc) however for other players out there not yet so set in their ways, that's my perspective, as a maker.

It's actually something I've worked on; I'm not as flat as I used to be. I may be bumping into the limits of my scarred lip, though. Ve shall see.

BTW, when I played clarinet, I was also consistently flat. Mebbe it's in my genes.

[johnkerr]

Better to find out where a given flute was meant to have the tuning slide set, mark that spot in some fashion, or make a simple measuring device (make an additional couple of marks on your swab stick which you can then hold up to the bands at the tuning slide) and then learn to play the instrument up to pitch where it was made to play best in-tune with itself.

I don't expect you to take that advice Chas (old dogs and new tricks etc) however for other players out there not yet so set in their ways, that's my perspective, as a maker.

Hmm. I play in a session with at least three and sometimes as many as five other flute players. On the scale of relative playing ability, I'd put myself in the lower half of the group. Some of you have heard me play, so that might give you an idea of the standard of this session. Others will just have to take my word that we've all been at it for a good while. All of the flute players at this session play Pratten-model Olwells, although one of us doesn't have a tuning slide. We're sometimes faced with the challenge of playing in tune with an accordion, but not always because the accordion player switches off to the fiddle at times (and his fiddle is not necessarily tuned to his accordion). But we flute players are always faced with the challenge of playing in tune with each other. Interestingly, if you looked at the position of the tuning slides on our instruments (all by the same maker, remember), you'd see a good bit of variation between us as we play together. None of us is ever pulled out more than a half inch or so, but between the furthest one in and the furthest one out there's usually a good quarter inch or more of difference. Patrick Olwell may have had a spot where he "meant" for the slide to be set, but I doubt that more than one of us ever would have the slide set there during a session. Yet we play in tune with one another. Probably not in perfect tune on a note by note basis, but good enough.

Another interesting thing: Over the course of the year, as the seasons change the positioning of my slide in order to play in tune with this session changes too. In the summertime, when the air is warm and moist, I'm pulled much further out than I am in the cold, dry mid-winter. If there is a spot where my slide was "meant" to be set, I'm probably only able to actually set it there maybe a quarter of the days of a year. The rest of the year, I need to work around it and compensate if I want to play in tune with everyone else.

My point, Loren? Simply that there are no absolutes in wooden flute making. There are compromises. And the best makers are the ones who can best deal with those compromises. Olwell is one of those guys. Don't know about you, as I've never seen one of your flutes, but your uncompromising position does make me wonder.

[Cathy Wilde]

I find it hardest to play in tune with other flutes; doesn't seem like that much of an issue otherwise. Guess it's a sonority thing.

I feel like the tuning is different between, say, my Murray and the Olwell and I have to adjust accordingly. It's interesting where each of them has their funny spots. Overall to my ear the Murray is the best in tune with itself across all registers, but it sometimes seems to ring sharp when playing with others. However, it has a really different voice quality, so ... ?

The mystery continues ....

Wow, five Olwells -- that's one brave box player!

[BrendanB]

Wow, five Olwells -- that's one brave box player!

Don't discount our bravery.

Not that it really matters, but my flute is the 'Nicholson' model. Just another example of what Cocus flute was talking about earlier. Most of the time, you can't tell the difference.

B

[johnkerr]

Wow, five Olwells -- that's one brave box player!

Actually, just one loud box player. But I suppose there is also often a bit of bravery involved when playing loudly, isn't there?

Not that it really matters, but my flute is the 'Nicholson' model. Just another example of what Cocus flute was talking about earlier. Most of the time, you can't tell the difference.

Yes, but you'll be leaving the Olwell fold fairly soon anyway, Brendan, so I'm not so sure you even count any more in discussions like this one.

Seriously, though, as to the question of getting groups of flutes in tune with each other, it often can be a pretty tricky proposition, and there are some times when we never do get there over the course of an evening. But usually we manage to settle into it after a bit. Seems to me that it's easier when there's a non-flute instrument there that we can all play off against in finding our spots. Tuning against another flute is like trying to hit a moving target with an unstable grip yourself. Flutes go sharp and flat seemingly on a whim due to how warm or cold they are, so it's easier to stabilize one if the pitch you're trying to tune against is coming from a more stable instrument. Personally, although accordions are fixed-pitch instruments I'd rather tune against a fiddle if given the choice.

[cocusflute]

I find it hardest to play in tune with other flutes

Cathy, I don't know if it applies to you, and please don't take it that way. It's probably more true of the other fluters you play with. Flute players often over-blow the second octave. Playing up high requires less air to stay in tune, but does require a more focused air-stream. Brad Hurley points out that you blow harder on the whistle to get up there-but on the flute you do it with your embouchure.
It's painful to be in a session with a fluter who over-blows the second octave. It comes out shrill and irritating. Accomplished flute-players, who listen, don't usually have this problem. But even then, when you're playing with somebody who is over-blowing you feel that you are out of tune- and you are: with that other person.
I haven't found that Murrays and Olwells are out of tune with each other- in the right hands. Any flute in the wrong hands is a potentially dangerous thing, none more so than a loud flute. People try to make up for problems in their embouchures by blowing harder - though they'd get louder naturally and be more in tune if they tightened up up their lips and blew a bit softer.

[Cathy Wilde]

Personally, although accordions are fixed-pitch instruments I'd rather tune against a fiddle if given the choice.

Oh, absolutely! To me, it's the voicing thing again. The flute and fiddle just seem to have closer tonalities, making it easier to focus on pure pitch when tuning.

[Cathy Wilde]

I find it hardest to play in tune with other flutes

Cathy, I don't know if it applies to you, and please don't take it that way. It's probably more true of the other fluters you play with. Flute players often over-blow the second octave.

Erm, no. I don't think it does. If anything, the second octave is far and away my better one. I tend to overblow the very bottom notes; I've gotten in the bad habit of trying to get those big, ringing bottom Ds and Es, and push them too much, especially on a flute like the Olwell that will give them to you without even trying. But I'm working on fixing it. Naturally, it's easier to keep track of at home by yourself and harder not to fall back into wicked ways in a fast or loud session or gig -- but I'll keep slogging.

I haven't found that Murrays and Olwells are out of tune with each other- in the right hands. Any flute in the wrong hands is a potentially dangerous thing, none more so than a loud flute. People try to make up for problems in their embouchures by blowing harder - though they'd get louder naturally and be more in tune if they tightened up up their lips and blew a bit softer.

Oops. I must not have said that correctly; didn't mean to mislead. I wasn't saying that Murrays and Olwells are out of tune with each other, I was just noting that my Murrays and my Olwell seem to require different approaches, and as far as tuning goes they have different places in their scales that seem to need a little attention (the Olwell C natural vs. the Murray's for example). And for me, across the board, my two Murrays need less embouchure adjustment.

As most of us know, it's a one in a blue-million simple-system flute that has a truly perfect natural scale; some notes are just truer than others (i.e., that's why John Skelton suggests flute players tune to "G"; it's a better, more open note). So basically, in my case these flutes have different voices to me and thus "sing" differently.

But since half the fun is trying to figure out what works best on each, I don't mind. It's part of the journey!

Anyway, hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

[malanstevenson]

It seems the consensus is that both Olwell's Pratten and Nicholson designs can give as much volume as one needs (with perhaps a slight edge to the Pratten, but largely depending on the player), but specifically, which one seems to have a stronger bottom end? I'm guessing the Pratten, but perhaps the Nicholson is equally robust in the right hands?


Thanking you,
Mark

[Aodhan]

You're just being argumentative, and you know full well that when someone knows they play sharp or flat consistently, the answer is to correct the problem with one's playing technique, rather than to start yanking the tuning slide way in or out. But then you just like to disagree with me.
Loren

Actually, I thought he was discussing rather nicely.

And in the 5 years I've been on the board, it seems to me that you like to disagree with about 95% of the people on here.

John