Carbon fibre

[Cathy Wilde]

Of course there could be a variety of factors at work here, but my fella sounds so much better now that he's ditched his carbon fiber bow and gone back to a wooden one. The fiber bow seemed to magnify everything almost to the point of shrillness. (And yes, I could tell the difference with my eyes closed and back turned 100% of the time)

OK, back to flutes .....

[Jack Bradshaw]

Flute fibah frum New Hamshah...???

Edit: I do have a sputter coater setup just for fiber if someone wants to hold the record for the world's most expensive flute.....be glad to help !

[meemtp]

Carbon fiber has been used in stringed instruments with a degree of success. It sounds better than instruments up to a certain range of quality, however (to my ears and mamy way more accomplished than myself) there's still a difference in timbre, etc. between a carbon fiber cello or mandolin and a master-made wooden one. Also, carbon fiber will not "open up". Furthermore, woodwinds work differently than stringed instruments. Regardless, the mileage is likely to be similar, better than plastic or delrin probably, but probably still not like wood. Science and technology have a long way to go to equal nature, I think that's been proven time and again.

[Lucas]

Science and technology have a long way to go to equal nature, I think that's been proven time and again.

I think science is a way to describe nature, just as poetry is, only a little more accurate
I know technology is able to reproduce an item a million times within given specs, nature isn't.
Don't confuse what you feel with what you know. As an engineer with a scientific education I KNOW materials do not make a difference, as a flutemaker I FEEL they do.

Talasiga's post was about the use of carbon fibre in simple system flutes. Why does nobody use it? Because the material is expensive and not in demand. IMHO acoustics have nothing to do with it.

[Jumbuk]

I know technology is able to reproduce an item a million times within given specs, nature isn't.

Hmmm ... trees, leaves, viruses, hydrogen molecules, stars etc etc ?

[Lucas]

I know technology is able to reproduce an item a million times within given specs, nature isn't.

Hmmm ... trees, leaves, viruses, hydrogen molecules, stars etc etc ?

Ever seen two trees or leaves or stars that are exactly the same? I haven't.
I have never seen a hydrogen molecule, so you might be right on that one.

[talasiga]

Science and technology have a long way to go to equal nature, I think that's been proven time and again.

I think science is a way to describe nature, just as poetry is, only a little more accurate
......

Ergo, the "accurate" can never equal the "poetic".
I am glad we all agree.

[Gordon]

I know technology is able to reproduce an item a million times within given specs, nature isn't.

Hmmm ... trees, leaves, viruses, hydrogen molecules, stars etc etc ?

Ever seen two trees or leaves or stars that are exactly the same? I haven't.
I have never seen a hydrogen molecule, so you might be right on that one.

And this is a good thing?
I'm not adverse to science and technology in instrument building, if it can lower the price, save a rare tree, and improve quality for low-end instruments, but perhaps it's the "flaws" in natural things, the slight variations found in nature, tree to tree - the minor vibrations that cause sonic imperfections, in the case of woodwinds (and more dramatically, stringed instruments) - that make a wooden instrument sound better to our ears.
Gordon

[mcdafydd]

I would like to emphasise that my interest in carbon fibre flutes is prompted by the fact that it is a very strong, durable material and very LIGHT.

I'm interested in John Landell's use of titanium for the same reasons you mention. I asked him about making a titanium alto flute (not that I have $20K lying around for what I'm sure it would cost), but he said that it's too difficult of a material to work with to warrant such an undertaking.

I'm also interested in tracking down some keyed simple system metal flutes, but there were so few of them made. And that's probably due to the falling interest in simple system instruments at the same time that interest in Boehm system was on the rise. The demand to manufacture metal simple system flutes in large, affordable quantities just never manifested, even though I'm sure there were (and are) always a few interested buyers.

[jim stone]

I think Meempt's point was that, when it comes to making
good sounding instruments that involve vibrating air
(either because the wood vibrates as in fiddles or there's
a column of vibrating air), man-made materials have a ways
to go before they beat stuff like wood, silver, etc. That's
what M thinks we've seen repeatedly.

The bottom line is this, IMO: what does a carbon fibre simple system
flute sound like? My bet is that it probably won't sound
as good as wood. But, of course, we don't know until
we try.

[jim stone]

Here's part of what Matlik flute co says about Boehm flutes made
of cargon fibre (kevin k has supplied the link, above).
I must confess a certain nervousness when makers
thump on the 'material doesn't matter' motif. However:


Using carbon fibre opens up new possibilities in musical acoustics. The effect of material on the sound of flute has for long been considered controversial. Already in the 19th century Theobalt Boehm experimented with different materials and came to the conclusion that a light and strong body gives the best result. In those days the common view was that the vibrating wall of a wind instrument body creates the sound, like the cover of a violin. Conversely, scientists claim to have proven that the molecules of the flute body can not essentially participate in sound production and the material of the body thus has no effect on the flute sound. This is an ongoing debate, as artistic perception and that of so called hard scientific fact do not find agreement in this case.

Still, the evolutionary process seems persistently to hint at the potency of the material of the body. Historically viewed, the tendency has moved from soft to hard and rigid materials. Boehm's material's studies concluded by favoring the tone producing qualities of the metal flute. Albert Cooper reports that he had hammered a flute body for several weeks to get a sufficient rigidity and a good sound. Soft flute tubes haven't succeeded, and any of us can imagine what kind of an acoustic effect a soft rubber tube would have on a flute.

The idea of using carbon fibre for a flute did not begin from scientific calculations. The starting point for Kahonen was to experiment the effects of sound by the exceptional properties of the body. The focus of the studies was a body construction with a light but very aperiodic wall, where energy losses are minimal. In a body of such a configuration, the wall itself doesn't create the sound, as scientists say. The most essential element is the vibrating column of air inside the flute. The construction of the body along a proper bore dimension, the placement of correctly proportioned tone holes and an optimal headjoint taper, wall height and embouchure hole configuration creates the best acoustical circumstances for the vibrating air column of the flute.

Reportedly, players' intuitions are that the flute with a carbon fibre body produces a responsive, powerful and rich sound with wide dynamic dimensions in volume and tonal colors. Acoustical tests, carried out in the laboratory of acoustics at the Helsinki University of Technology, prove the players' intuitions to be correct. Measured maximum volume level was notably powerful compared to the best conventional flutes made of silver, gold and wood. The measured tonal spectra was notably rich throughout the octave range.

[Lucas]

Hmmm ... trees, leaves, viruses, hydrogen molecules, stars etc etc ?

Ever seen two trees or leaves or stars that are exactly the same? I haven't.
I have never seen a hydrogen molecule, so you might be right on that one.

And this is a good thing?

No. Who said anything about good or bad? I simply wanted to state that science is not the opposite of nature, in fact nature IS science.

[vomitbunny]

How would carbon fibre compare with pvc?

[Jack Bradshaw]

How would carbon fibre compare with pvc?

Depends what's used to bond the fibers together.....

[BoneQuint]

Also from the Matit website: "The metal keywork operates on magnets instead of metal springs."

Woah. That's pretty cool.