Outside my window

[Lambchop]

This is from Wikipedia. Perhaps it might not be so much a prohibition against "graven images" as the cultivation of vanity . . .

"Two key concepts for understanding Amish practices are their rejection of Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) and the high value they place on Demut or "humility" and Gelassenheit (calmness, composure, placidity) — often translated as "submission" or "letting-be," but perhaps better understood as a reluctance to be forward, self-promoting, or to assert oneself in any way. The willingness to submit to the Will of God, as expressed through group norms, is at odds with the individualism so central to the wider American culture. The Amish anti-individualist orientation is the motive for rejecting labor-saving technologies that might make one less dependent on community; or which, like electricity, might start a competition for status-goods; or which, like photographs, might cultivate individual or family vanity. It is also the proximate cause for rejecting education beyond the eighth grade, especially speculative study that has little practical use for farm life but may awaken personal and materialistic ambitions. The emphasis on competition and the uncritical assumption that self-reliance is a good thing — both cultivated in American high schools and exalted as an American ideal — are in direct opposition to core Amish values."

[talasiga]

That is one of the better photos I have seen hereabouts ..........

A propos Lambchop's latest post, I hereby amend the above comment by deleting the comparative adjective "better" with its competitive connotation and replacing it with "good".

Amended comment now reads:-

"That is one of the good photos I have seen hereabouts ...... "

[izzarina]

I should be the most offended one here!

You posted a photo in the topic starter.
The topic had no responses and was dropping to the bottom fast.
I salvaged its fall.

You did, and despite the whirlwind of "controversy" which seems to be surrounding said photo, I am very much obliged to you for resurrecting (to a certain extent) the thread. I too saw it plummet most dramatically toward page two, and quite frankly I was a bit distressed. I'd never had a thread that absolutely no one replied to until that point. Your salvaging was, and still is, most appreciated.

I said the above about the photo.
It was, for me, one of the better photos.
I liked the horse, the buggy, the crisp wintery vegetation
(leafless, nakedly awaiting the spring),
the contrasts of olden beauty with modern garbage
of horizontal direction (of the horse and buggy)
and the vertical direction of the trees,
the wooden casing a metaphor
for restricted observation.
I liked the care you took (you and your son)
to avoid photoing the person.

I like it that you have such views from your house
and I like it that you like it.

I, and my son, thank you for the glowing review of his photo. Although, to be honest, no matter how modern my garbage may be, I still found it to be rather ghastly

I do not like it that I find myself agreeing with the likes
of the Weekenders, Tyler Morris, gonzo914 and others in this topic.
They have spoken well and I like what they say.
It offends me to admit it.

It offends me for you to have to admit it. Perhaps we can find out if their comments can be deleted?

That photo had soul.
Why hide it under a bushel?

It's not really hidden under a bushel. It's still in my photobucket account. And I would put it back up, but what's done is done. No point in making things even worse for poor Joseph....then I'd have to send him gads of chocolate to make up for my bit of mischief.

[Denny]

And I would put it back up, but what's done is done. No point in making things even worse for poor Joseph....then I'd have to send him gads of chocolate to make up for my bit of mischief.

tryin' to see if Joe'll beg?

[cowtime]

I checked out only one or two threads last night, just too late to do more, and I am one of the lucky ones who did see the offensive photo. It really was a well composed, thought provoking photo. I'd probably put it back up out of sheer cussedness.

KUDOS to all who took a stand against PC. I'm with ya. I'm sure we all are offended by something on here from time to time, but we deal with it. The Whole World is offensive.

Now , not only we are to be offended personally, but offended for the sake of the person who was not aware he was being offended against. Offended by proxy?

[jim stone]

This is from Wikipedia. Perhaps it might not be so much a prohibition against "graven images" as the cultivation of vanity . . .

"Two key concepts for understanding Amish practices are their rejection of Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) and the high value they place on Demut or "humility" and Gelassenheit (calmness, composure, placidity) — often translated as "submission" or "letting-be," but perhaps better understood as a reluctance to be forward, self-promoting, or to assert oneself in any way. The willingness to submit to the Will of God, as expressed through group norms, is at odds with the individualism so central to the wider American culture. The Amish anti-individualist orientation is the motive for rejecting labor-saving technologies that might make one less dependent on community; or which, like electricity, might start a competition for status-goods; or which, like photographs, might cultivate individual or family vanity. It is also the proximate cause for rejecting education beyond the eighth grade, especially speculative study that has little practical use for farm life but may awaken personal and materialistic ambitions. The emphasis on competition and the uncritical assumption that self-reliance is a good thing — both cultivated in American high schools and exalted as an American ideal — are in direct opposition to core Amish values."

I met a young Amish fellow many years ago in Chicago, in his
early 20s. He had left the Amish and he was mad that he
had missed so much of the world. Ending kid's education
when they are 13, well, there are going to be some very
bright Amish kids who are really going to suffer there,
and by the time they're old enough to leave, catching
up may be hard to do. What if you're really gifted
at math or whatever? It's one thing to make these decisions
for yourself, another to make them for children, it
seems to me.

[jim stone]

This is from Wikipedia. Perhaps it might not be so much a prohibition against "graven images" as the cultivation of vanity . . .

"Two key concepts for understanding Amish practices are their rejection of Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) and the high value they place on Demut or "humility" and Gelassenheit (calmness, composure, placidity) — often translated as "submission" or "letting-be," but perhaps better understood as a reluctance to be forward, self-promoting, or to assert oneself in any way. The willingness to submit to the Will of God, as expressed through group norms, is at odds with the individualism so central to the wider American culture. The Amish anti-individualist orientation is the motive for rejecting labor-saving technologies that might make one less dependent on community; or which, like electricity, might start a competition for status-goods; or which, like photographs, might cultivate individual or family vanity. It is also the proximate cause for rejecting education beyond the eighth grade, especially speculative study that has little practical use for farm life but may awaken personal and materialistic ambitions. The emphasis on competition and the uncritical assumption that self-reliance is a good thing — both cultivated in American high schools and exalted as an American ideal — are in direct opposition to core Amish values."

I met a young Amish fellow many years ago in Chicago, in his
early 20s. He had left the Amish and he was mad that he
had missed so much of the world. Ending kid's education
when they are 13, well, there are going to be some very
bright Amish kids who are really going to suffer there,
and by the time they're old enough to leave, catching
up may be hard to do. What if you're really gifted
at math, really love it, or whatever? It's one thing to make these decisions
for yourself, another to make them for children, it
seems to me.

[anniemcu]

I met a young Amish fellow many years ago in Chicago, in his
early 20s. He had left the Amish and he was mad that he
had missed so much of the world. Ending kid's education
when they are 13, well, there are going to be some very
bright Amish kids who are really going to suffer there,
and by the time they're old enough to leave, catching
up may be hard to do. What if you're really gifted
at math, really love it, or whatever? It's one thing to make these decisions
for yourself, another to make them for children, it
seems to me.

Life doesn't end at 13, nor does learning. A truly gifted person will flourish when they finally discover their niche.

Life doesn't end at 13, but apparently education
that doesn't have a practical application to farm
life does--for Amish kids. I'm not sure I entirely understand
what your next sentence means or how it applies. I expect that pure genius will find its way somehow,
but what about kids who are just very good at various
things and yearn to know more? Imagine leaving
at 20 and there you are with your 8th grade education.

Let me suggest that children have a right to more education
and add the speculation (not having been there) that a number
adolescents may be having a very hard time in
such communities.

By the way it was said earlier that Amish are 'wonderful
people.' I think Amish are people like
everybody else, except they're Amish.

People raise their children in the way they think is best for them. Certainly there will be disagreements as to what is right, but as parents have the right and responsibility to govern the rearing of their own children (within the law) until the age of legal emancipation. It really doesn't matter whether you and I approve of what they are doing or not. As these kids are encourage to go out into the world and experience the the 'other' before they *make their own decision* about staying in the traditional lifestyle, I don't think it can reasonably be argued that they are being abused and forced to miss out on a different life.

As for "a number adolescents may be having a very hard time in such communities" - certainly that can be said of just about any cross-section of humanity you choose to look at. I personally disagree with the rearing practices of a number of traditions, but that doesn't give me the right to condemn them outright. By the same freedom that they get to live their lives according to their beliefs, so do I. Hence, I have raised my children as I feel is best, though many have felt the need to tell me I'm cheating them by not putting them into the public schools or attending any of the local churches. Interestingly though, many more have told me what exceptional children I have, more caring, more polite, more open and more accesible than most kids their ages. So... what's "right" and what's "wrong"? I can't say I could answer that, truthfully. I think we're just different, and that always makes people nervous. It surely doesn't make "different" "wrong", though.

My second sentence, "A truly gifted person will flourish when they finally discover their niche." is in direct response to your "...there are going to be some very bright Amish kids who are really going to suffer there, and by the time they're old enough to leave, catching up may be hard to do. What if you're really gifted at math, really love it, or whatever?"

[jim stone]

Life doesn't end at 13, but apparently education
that doesn't have a practical application to farm
life does--for Amish kids. I'm not sure I entirely understand
what your next sentence means or how it applies. I expect that pure genius will find its way somehow,
but what about kids who are just very good at various
things and yearn to know more? Imagine leaving
at 20 and there you are with your 8th grade education.

Let me suggest that children have a right to more education
and add the speculation (not having been there) that a number
adolescents may be having a very hard time in
such communities.

By the way it was said earlier that Amish are 'wonderful
people.' I think Amish are people like
everybody else, except they're Amish.

[talasiga]

...... And I would put it back up, but what's done is done. No point in making things even worse for poor Joseph....then I'd have to send him gads of chocolate to make up for my bit of mischief.

And what, exshactly, is the nexshus between a mishing photo and Josheph?

[flanum]

Heres a pic of Hamish the non-Amish Horse, hopefully its not too offensive.

[izzarina]

And I would put it back up, but what's done is done. No point in making things even worse for poor Joseph....then I'd have to send him gads of chocolate to make up for my bit of mischief.

tryin' to see if Joe'll beg?

DENNY!!! How many times do I have to tell you NOT to give away all my secrets??

[Martin Milner]

to have your picture taken when you do not know it, ... is a horribly emotionally disturbing thing.

Cranberry, don't be such a tit.

If you don't know about it, how can it disturb you?

You do talk a lot of nonsense sometimes.

[emmline]

I'd probably put it back up out of sheer cussedness.

Oh, me too. Must be something ornery in those Western Virginian roots.

KUDOS to all who took a stand against PC. I'm with ya. I'm sure we all are offended by something on here from time to time, but we deal with it. The Whole World is offensive.

And better for it.

[Joseph E. Smith]

And I would put it back up, but what's done is done. No point in making things even worse for poor Joseph....then I'd have to send him gads of chocolate to make up for my bit of mischief.

tryin' to see if Joe'll beg?

DENNY!!! How many times do I have to tell you NOT to give away all my secrets??

... well, as long as the cat's out of the bag, gimme gimme gimme chocolate!