Tonguing or throating?

[roj]

I just started playing again after many, (many) years. Thanks to the internet and all of you, I may actually learn something this time.

Anyway, re: tonguing...I think that I am accomplishing that effect by closing the throat instead of using the tongue. Played harmonica for years using that technique.

Or is that a separate thing?

[rh]

I just started playing again after many, (many) years. Thanks to the internet and all of you, I may actually learn something this time.

Anyway, re: tonguing...I think that I am accomplishing that effect by closing the throat instead of using the tongue. Played harmonica for years using that technique.

Or is that a separate thing?

actually, throating is usually the preferred technique for Irish flute.

[roj]

Well, that will come in handy, since I've also started playing the flute as well, or trying to. But, is it okay to use it in whistling as well? Or is there a good reason not to.

Do other flautists use throating when they switch to whistle, or do they go to tonguing?

[crookedtune]

Both, but many try to minimize the tonguing on whistle. I used to overdo it, and like my sound better with less of it.

[roj]

Thanks, that's very helpful.

[rh]

Well, that will come in handy, since I've also started playing the flute as well, or trying to. But, is it okay to use it in whistling as well? Or is there a good reason not to.

Do other flautists use throating when they switch to whistle, or do they go to tonguing?

Sorry, i'd seen your posts in the flute forum and i was thinking you meant flute here as well. I didn't look at what forum you'd posted in.

Whistles usually do better with tonguing (it sounds crisper and it's easier to get the high notes that way), but it depends on the whistle and the player i think. Some players like Sean Ryan and Brian Finnegan have a very staccato attack with lots of tonguing (Finnegan also does this on flute). Other players rely heavily on fingered ornaments to separate notes and tongue sparingly; some seem to use some throating too (i'm thinking Larry Nugent does some of this, along with tonguing).

Even with tonguing, there is a difference between "ta" and "da", i tend to "da" on the whistle and even sometimes on the flute (heresy!), but "ta" sounds kind of stilted to me most of the time (when i do it anyway, Sean Ryan is another matter). There are exceptions to this too, like on Susatos where i'll use "tat" in the upper octaves to control the scream factor on some tunes.

YMMV.

[Whitmores75087]

Hmm, not sure I agree with (or understand) rh. When I listen to the greats of the whistle I hear very little crisp tonguing. So, for me, throating (glottal stop) sounds more like what they accomplish most of the time. I do a little tonguing here and there (part A of Glass Of Beer reel) in order to imitate rolls and crans that I'm not skilled enough to accomplish with the fingers.
OK, I've re-read rh's post. I agree that some pros do a lot of tonguing, but I find when I do it that it sounds like a little girl with a recorder, whether I ta or da. And no, I never touch the end of the whistle with my tongue. Maybe I'll revisit this whole subject and see if I can make it work for me now.

[roj]

In general, would tonguing cause more moisture to accumulate in the airway?

[MTGuru]

In general, would tonguing cause more moisture to accumulate in the airway?

No. Not unless your spitting ... which is not exactly the same as tonguing.

Whitmores, there's no master rulebook, fortunately. I think the beginner's advice not to tongue on the whistle is more to counter the beginner's tendency to tongue everything like a recorder. If you listen carefully to the masters, you often hear a lot of crisp articulation, usually with the tongue.

But don't expect to hear a distinct, plosive "ttah"! The tongue is usually used more as just a valve to stop the airflow for a fraction of a second, not as a percussive effect. Think of it more as momentarily cutting off the end of the note you're playing, rather than starting the next note. When you gently release the tongue "valve", the next note should start right up with a gentle even articulation (unless you really want the plosive pop!). It's the tiny space you create between the notes that gives the effect of crispness.

As rh says above, there's a difference between "ta" and "da". In linguistics terms, the d sound is "voiced" and the t sound is "unvoiced". But the significant difference for the whistle is that, in English, the initial t sound is accompanied by a little puff of air, where the d sound is not. Try it yourself. Place the palm of your hand right in front of your lips, then loudly say the word "tie". You feel the puff - that's the plosive part. Now loudly say the word "die". No puff (or much less).

But there's no physical reason that the t sound has to be plosive. In fact, in languages like Spanish the t is typically *not* plosive. Try saying "tie" without producing the puff of air. That's more or less the Spanish t, and that's a normal articulation to shoot for on the whistle.

(This difference is also one of the reasons that English and Spanish speakers can have mutually horrible accents, but that's another thread entirely!)

Anecdotally, to me it seems natural that whistle players coming from another wind instrument tend to carry over their technique. So flute players might tend to throat more, and pipers might tend to use less tongue and more finger articulation. It's all good if it sounds good, and it gives a distinctive flavor to personal styles.

Hope that helps.

[Whitmores75087]

Thanks MT, some good advice there. I tried some tonguing this AM and found that it wasn't as explosive as in past years, so I guess my skills are coming along, but I'll try that idea of simply cutting off the note like a valve, rather than spitting out the next note.

[Leel]

It's all good if it sounds good, and it gives a distinctive flavor to personal styles.

AMEN to THAT, Brother!

[Cubitt]

I'd like to express an opinion about tonguing and throating (why should today be different?). I recommend you avoid using consonants to accomplish either technique. Avoid the "tuh" or "duh" of tonguing, and the "kuh" or "guh" of throating. When tonguing, it is cleaner and crisper to use the tongue only to momentarily stop the flow of air, either by snapping it against the teeth or the roof of the mouth. You need not actually pronounce a consonant to do this. It should be a very light touch unless you are going after a particular effect, in which case you do what your ear tells you is right.

Similarly, for throating, the action is more of a cough that momentarily contricts the throat to get the articulation. A "kuh" can be heard as a "kuh," and that is not a pleasant sound.

[jking]

obviously as per recent tune posts i like tonguing. I think its a real personal thing equivalent to what flavour ice cream you like. Give me brian finnegan any day over a mary bergin etc etc . Now as far as tradition mary is prob the best in the world and i in no way diminish her ability but i enjoy brians style infinately more. To me his music seems to have more life and energy to it. It may not be interpreted to traditional standards but the question is does it have to be. If you find what you like ...enjoy it. that goes for listening and playing style. See again i do agree that tonguing can be over done but i probably enjoy a bit more than most. (especially tongued triplets....love em.) I like to use ta-ka-da and da-da-da.

the whistle player from millish is fantastic at combining triplets/tonguing and smooth playing.

[StevieJ]

obviously as per recent tune posts i like tonguing. I think its a real personal thing equivalent to what flavour ice cream you like. Give me brian finnegan any day over a mary bergin etc etc .

Others might assume from reading this that Mary doesn't use tonguing - in fact she does, copiously. Her use of tonguing may not be as in your face as Brian's, but it's a vital component of her sound and rhythm.

[eskin]

Well, I was tempted to post some naughty reference here, but I'll bite my tongue...

I don't do the throating thing generally, but I started on silver flute as a child and converted to wooden flute about 15 years ago. When I play trad flute I'm primarily articulating with my fingers or with the tongue. I generally don't use glottal articulation for starting notes, but may use it alone or combined with pushing from the diaphragm for rhythmic emphasis within sustained notes.