Tonguing too noisy?

[AaronMalcomb]

A glottal stop (or "throating," as Grey Larsen likes to call it) should be used sparingly. On flute, articulation should primarily be done with the fingers, much as a piper would do.

Some might suggest that Grey Larsen's apporach should be used sparingly.

A lot of players suggest using methods of articulation that best display the character of the instrument. In the case of the flute this would mean less finger articulation and more glottal stops, pulses and breath phrases.

A glottal stop is how we articulate consecutive vowels in speech (e.g. 'uh-oh') and the same method applies to consecutive notes on the flute. In the case of 'uh-oh' the glottal stop is at the hyphen -- between 'uh' and 'oh'.

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

Sorry to beat a warhorse topic to death, but I cannot find a decent definition of what a glottal stop is!?

Is it simply like tonguing, but you're using a "K" sound instead of a "T?"

Kuh instead of Tuh?

Um, say the word "kitten." Don't annunciate it really carefully or anything, just say it how you would normally say it...Or if that doesn't work, try pronouncing the word "bottle" with a Cockney accent. That, in a purely linguistic sense, is what a glottal stop is.

In a musical sense, the term "glottal stop" is actually a bit of a misnomer, as most people tend to produce an unvoiced velar plosive (i.e., a "k" sound). If you ever plan on doing any double or triple tounging (which Jean Michel Veillon does a lot of), you will need to get to grips with doing this. Double tounging is just "ta" (with your tongue juuust above you teeth, where most English speakers would normally pronounce a "t") followed by "ka." Triple tounging is just "ta-ka-ta."

Have fun!


The Sporting Pitchfork
Phonetics Vigilante

[cocusflute]

I don't use glottal stops at all. In fact, I'm not even sure I want that type of sound.

This is just nuts. The glottal stop is at the heart of nearly every Irish dance tune played on the wooden flute.

Or perhaps he's talking about glottal stops in connection with a different genre? Or playing a whistle or a metal flute?

[Cork]

OK, maybe this seems like hair splitting...

For the most part, I agree with most of what has been said about the use of the letters k and t. However, I would use something more like kuu, and tuu, as these can be alternated very quickly.

[Ro3b]

There are many more important things that constitute style in Irish flute playing. Ultimately the only people that give a rat's ass whether you tongue or glottal are other Irish flute players.

I hardly ever use the glottal stop, myself -- I find it creates too much tension in my throat, plus I can't do it without vocalizing slightly. [/quote]

[Wormdiet]

I don't use glottal stops at all. In fact, I'm not even sure I want that type of sound.

This is just nuts. The glottal stop is at the heart of nearly every Irish dance tune played on the wooden flute.

I am certainly displaying my ignorance here but could you elaborate?

The advice I have read (here, other sites, Larsen and elsewhere) or gotten in person from live real Irish flute players from Ireland has NOT emphasized the glottal stop as "the heart" of Irish flute playing.

I'm a very inexperienced player (two years on flute, a bit more on whistle) If I am missing "the heart" of playing, I'd like to fix that immediately.

This isn't a jab, but a serious concern and question.

[crookedtune]

This is all very subjective, obviously. I don't think of the glottal stop as the "heart" of ITM, either. But I do try to use it in addition to some tonguing and (primarily) finger-based ornamentation like cuts, rolls, etc... All are valid tools that players can use in their own unique ways to achieve what it is they do. FWIW, I'm a firm believer in the "there is no right way" philosophy of folk music.

[norseman]

Here's what Seamus Egan says about glottal stopping in the Mad for Trad flute tutorial:

Glottal Stopping:

You will notice that as each note is played, it sounds "seperated" from the previous note. This is achieved by making a guttural " K" sound at the back of the throat. The glottal stop is helpful in creating an overall clarity in flute music; rather than all the notes flowing into one another, the guttural "K" sound gives definition to some of the notes. As you proceed through the tutorial, you will notice the importance of this technique, particularly in the area of ornamentation. It will be helpful to get used to it now.

When he demonstrates this, I don't really hear an audible "K" sound. I'm not saying this is the final word on this, just what one good player has to say about it.

[Harry]

... FWIW, I'm a firm believer in the "there is no right way" philosophy of folk music.

Yes, just an endless set of variations on "the wrong way" it seems.

Regards,

Harry.

[Cathy Wilde]

Funny, I've been thinking about this a lot lately (I can hear Caroluna laughing already ....)

I don't know about the "heart", but I think it's definitely a vital organ, esp. for certain styles of playing. Some of the more "internally rhythmic" things like flings and the big "chugga-chugga" tunes seem to really come alive with a good combination of pulse and glottal articulation; it's more percussive and foot-stomping.

And then there are some tighter lighter tunes and settings, and treatments thereof seem to benefit from the more delicate approach of tonguing.

But basically, I think it's good to be able to do both, often within the same tune. It's whatever the passage, style, and setting demand in terms of emphasis (or lack thereof).

And now The Long Version .... (complete with bonus maunderings!)

I've asked several serious players about it over the last few years, and while the general bias one way or another seems to be personal, I think most good players can deploy both as needed. Louise Mulcahy told me she uses tonguing when playing the whistle -- makes sense, the crispness is appropriate, esp. to her style -- but tends to use the glottal approach on the flute -- again, that aligns with her style. Then, I listen to someone like Dave Sheridan or Paul Smyth, who seem to have a more crisp approach (And then there's Harry ... well Harry's a genius who seems to be able to do both simultaneously!) overall, and it seems tonguing's a little more prevalent in their playing.

After using glottals almost exclusively over the last year or so, I'm now trying more tongued articulation as well. (At first I stayed away from it entirely because I was warned that my tonguing was one of the things that would show me up as a classical player almost as fast as diaphragm vibrato ....)

FWIW, I've run into Rob's vocalization issue as well -- and once my larynx starts buzzing, it's hard to stop. (My classical teachers would have COWS!)

Anyway, bottom line I go back to the classic John Skelton "horses for courses" philosophy. I'm trying to learn to use both, because it seems like there's a place for each -- it just depends on what you're trying to convey and what serves the tune best.

'Cos there are times when a nice feathery "dah" or crisp "tah" is just more appropriate than a "gah", yah knah?

[Bojax]

Well, you see how easy it is to get confused on this subject.

Maybe we can narrow this thread to a discussion of what exactly a glottal stop is, rather than when it should be used?

I'm trying to play Irish trad music, and I have never played a wind instrument, so I don't suffer from trying to tongue every note like a classical player. I do know what Irish music should sound like (7 years of fiddle playing), so I won't be overusing any ornaments, fingerwise or breathwise. And, yes, I have the Mad for Trad CD-Rom where Seamus Egan says he articulates two of the same notes in a tune by using the glottal stop. I also don't hear a "K" or "Kuh" sound when he's doing it... thus my bringing this whole topic up.

So, one person said the glottal stop was what your throat does in between "Uh" and "Oh." But when I try this I only hear an Uh, then an Oh. Two syllables. I don't hear anything in between! What am I missing here?

[Cork]

...After using glottals almost exclusively over the last year or so, I'm now trying more tongued articulation as well. (At first I stayed away from it entirely because I was warned that my tonguing was one of the things that would show me up as a classical player almost as fast as diaphragm vibrato,...and once my larynx starts buzzing, it's hard to stop. (My classical teachers would have COWS!

In a word, your larynx buzzes (bad!, bad!, bad!) BECAUSE you have been using throaty glottals, not from "proper" tonguing. Moreover, anyone to accuse you of "classical" tonguing is an amatuer, and certainly not one worth paying attention to. Tonguing, after all, is a highly skilled, and hard earned, discipline which, in terms of articulation, appears to be an ultimate flute articulation form.

If anybody could say otherwise, then, please, put it here.

[Bojax]

By the way, thanks for the "Ta-ka-ta" post Sporting Pitchfork! That really helps with tonguing triplets!

[Ro3b]

So, one person said the glottal stop was what your throat does in between "Uh" and "Oh." But when I try this I only hear an Uh, then an Oh. Two syllables. I don't hear anything in between! What am I missing here?

What does your throat do to separate the "uh" from the "oh?" How do you make it come out "uh-oh" instead of "uhoh?" The little closure in your throat that separates the sounds is a glottal stop.

FWIW I've found the "throat-tuning" technique to be a big help in getting people to stop vocalizing. Just spend a few minutes playing long tones and singing the pitch you're playing at the same time. Get it as in tune as you can. It'll really smooth you out and open you up.

[Cork]

By the way, thanks for the "Ta-ka-ta" post Sporting Pitchfork! That really helps with tonguing triplets!

Tuu-kuu-tuu, or perhaps tu-ku-tu, rapidly, as required.

Think of the vowels "uu" as pronounced more as the "oo" in a word such as "soon", as with the tongue held high.

;-)