How big a factor is the wall thickness in a whistle? Can a whistle have a tube with varying thickness (but consistent bore size) and still be in tune? I ask this in the context of sanding down the wall on the outside edge of a finger hole to make the angle at which you hold your finger over the hole more comfortable, as in a slight depression to rest the finger in.
The reason I ask is that a friend from a local session asked me about whether it would ruin his whistle. The whistle in mind is a Susato low G. It seems uncomfortable for him to cover the lower holes at the angle the holes are cut using pipers grip.
Would sanding the edge of the hole so that it looks more like “| / ” than “ | | ” (for lack of a better symbol) change the sound adversely? Or would it make any difference?
I haven’t a clue (and don’t want him to ruin his only low G), so I thought I’d check with you all. Any help would be much appreciated.
Altering the size of holes and the depth of the chimney will have an effect on the tuning. Undercutting does change tuning. The amount of the effect will depend on a number of factor, how deep the chimney was in the first place and how much of it is taken away for example. As you file and scrape check your tuning, stop when you start bringing it off. Once you try selling your whistle again, tell people you've altered it but before starting your work realise the operation will make the whistle pretty much unattractive to potential buyers.
Unless you really know what you are doing, it would be better to hunt for a whistle that is comfortable than to tinker with this one.
BTW, pipers grip is fine and only takes a few days practice to get used to. I would always use it on a low G. Sometimes I use it for one hand but not the other; it all depends on what is comfortable.
Steffi...
I wrecked a few high-end aluminum whistles...years ago...by getting cute and trying to do what you're talking about. They're still around here, somewhere, gathering dust. Perhaps I should make 'em into a windchime?
And, hmmmm, if a Susato Low G whistle is "too hard" on your friend's hands...'cause the tone-holes are too sharp...he must have really tender hands. Maybe he could toughen his hands up some. If a new career as a bricklayer is inappropriate, there's yard work, many sporting activities that use the hands, etc etc. If it's a medical condition, that's different.
But, then again, I'm a tough old bird who does a variety of rough-hewn things...and my Susato Low D feels soft and silky in me hands.
I would recommend that your friend look into another low G if it's that difficult for him to play. I've found with Susato low whistles (I've tried A and G) that the bottom holes are a much wider spread than most other makes.
Thanks so much everyone for the replies! I’ll pass on the info. I hope I’m not too late!
“And, hmmmm, if a Susato Low G whistle is "too hard" on your friend's hands...'cause the tone-holes are too sharp...he must have really tender hands. Maybe he could toughen his hands up some. If a new career as a bricklayer is inappropriate, there's yard work, many sporting activities that use the hands, etc etc. If it's a medical condition, that's different.”
I think it’s more an issue of the angle at which he’s holding his fingers over the lower holes. Not so much the holes being sharp. That’s not the problem. The idea was that, theoretically, broad, shallow depressions would be filed where the fingers lay on the whistle leading up to the lower holes (imagine coating your hands in paint and then playing a low whistle using pipers grip. The depressions would be on the paint marks right next to the holes, making it custom-fit your hands and therefore a more comfortable whistle to play. It’s definitely not worth ruining a perfectly good whistle over, though.) It seems more than anything to be a matter of getting accustomed to using pipers grip.
Thanks again, everyone!
~Stefanie
Mr. Laban, just wanted to mention that I heard you and Kitty Hayes the other day on Clare FM and really enjoyed it!
Another thing to think about: If your friend adapts the whistle to his technique, he might be able to play that one modified whistle. But if your friend improves his technique, he should be able to play any whistle. Much better!
With piper's grip, the middle joints are far less sensitive to touch than the tips or pads. So it may be harder at first to feel when the holes are not completely covered. Pressing down a bit more firmly helps to flatten the joints and ensure a better seal.
As straycat says, the Susato hole spacing is fairly big. So ultimately, a different whistle might be a better solution. But it would be shame to give up without trying. It's a nice whistle.
Hi, this is Henry, Steffi's friend that started this whole thing. Just a little background, after several years I am switching from the fiddle to the whistle, and decided on a Susato low G. My wife, who playes the concertina, about the same time started playing the pipes.
Seeing her fingering, I decided to try a modified piper fingering on my whistle, specifically the pads of my ring fingers on the # 3 & 6 holes with # 1,2, 4,&5 holes being covered between the first and second joints of the first and second fingers. This works fine for all holes except for #5.
In my fingering, the fingers approach the whistle at an angle. For the small holes, no problem exists as the flesh between the joints can cover the hole. For larger hole #5. my finger is frequently unable to fully cover it (pipers, approaching the hole at right angles, do not have this problem).
I think my difficulty could be overcome with a "little" filing. The walls of the Susato are quite thick and in fact it almost seems possible to file down enough to have a flat surface on top (for #5) without even hitting the inside surface---and thus not changing the note.
I would probobly stop filing before getting it fully flat but there is always the piper option-as I understand it- of using electrical tape to partially close holes when notes are not quite on.
Well, that about covers it. I would appreciate any feedback ( and do thank you all- and especially Steffi- for your input to date and there is the chance that all this is just my learning to use the whistle since I sure couldn't file down a tin whistle. Thanks again, Henry
Even if you don't touch the inner surface of the hole, you MIGHT affect pitch. If you decide to try anyway, take off a tiny bit, test the pitch and repeat..
Henry, I still think you can probably solve your problem by adjusting and experimenting with your hand position. If you can cover the #4 and #6 holes with the grip you describe, then you should be able to cover #5 no problem. After all, the spacing between #4 and #5 is pretty short. The angle of your finger shouldn't make that much of a difference, unless your fingers are downright skeletal! I've got skinny, bony fingers, and can still get a good seal on the hole at an angle of around 30 degrees from perpendicular. Try playing with different angles. When I use your grip, #4 hole sits almost under the big joint of that finger, and #5 almost under the small joint of that finger.
You can also try a different grip using the joint instead of pad of your #6 finger. This is perfectly OK too, and tends to place your fingers more perpendicular to the barrel of the whistle. Or try pinky grip.
I sometimes think of modifying my fiddle by wiring frets to the fingerboard to solve my intonation problems. But I know the problem is me, not the instrument. I've seen low whistlers report that it's taken them weeks or a month for their piper's grip to work. It takes time and practice for the hands to stretch and limber up, and the finger joints to pad out a little bit. But if you decide to perform surgery on your Susato, good luck!
Based on what I know of tuning tricks for recorders, changing the shape of the hole does have an effect - on one octave or the other, even if you leave it unchanged at the inside of the bore. I wouldn't mess with it.
The Susato low G has probably the biggest stretch between holes 5 and 6 in comparison with the space between 4 and 5 of any whistle I've seen including the two low Ds I have within reach right now (a Kerry and an O'Brien). I find it and the Susato F very difficult because of that.
What I plan to do (just haven't done it yet) is send my Susato low G and low F back to Kelischek and have their new keys fitted to the lowest holes. I might even have it done for the A.
They'll do it for $20 per key. With the keys I'll not even need piper's grip to play 'em I expect and it'll be MUCH easier to move back and forth between the higher whistles and these otherwise very nice lower ones reliably.
I forgot to mention, re. piper's grip ... If you're playing with the finger joints of your bottom hand locked fairly straight, try instead curving the fingers very slightly around the barrel. This increases the contact area between the finger joints and the whistle, and helps to compensate for the angle.
The Susato keys BEC mentioned are definitely another solution for some. Forgot all about those.
It's Henry again. I actually have the whistle with the 6 hole key, but decided to remove the key, the extra force required, little that it was, was not somerhing I was sure I could get comfortable with and then the wife started on how it was better to pivot my fingers at the knuckle than the joint, so here I am. I do think I will put off filing, both from your inputs and it just may be something one needs to get use to.
Thanks again, Henry
Henry...
Get jiggy widdit. Get nasty. Man-handle the thing. Ape-grip that G, and it'll obey your every whim. Fuggeddaboudit.... Or, play a Low D for awhile...and the G will feel like a small piece of cake. Early attempts at handling a whistle are always trying. Later? pffffft. Nuttin'.
