do different woods have different tones?

pipersgrip · Post by **pipersgrip** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:41 pm

hi guys, i like wood whistles over the metal ones. i was just wandering if the type of wood you get affect the tone in any way? like is there a difference in the dymondwood and blackwood on sweetheart whistles, or is the price and looks the only difference? and why is blackwood always the most expensive, does it have the best tone?

Congratulations · Post by **Congratulations** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:43 pm

Oh lord.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:17 pm

Congratulations wrote:Oh lord.

bbbbbbut, it's such a simple question...isn't it?

I'll be under the desk.

pipersgrip · Post by **pipersgrip** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm

i know they do, i just want to know what woods have the best tone, and is there a huge difference between some of the woods.

Congratulations · Post by **Congratulations** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:50 pm

Well, this is a bit more the controversial can of worms than you'd think. I'd suggest you do a search, especially around the flute forum.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:25 pm

Wow, this is like double triple deja vu...ok, I'll start. If I remember correctly, dymondwood is constructed of layers of laminate - thought to be like wood in all the good ways but more durable; however, some recent feedback indicates that there may be problems with at least certain batches of dymondwood. Blackwood is a wonderful long used wood for musical instruments because it is a dense stable wood - I can vouch for this from experience over a long period of time with many pieces. Mopane is said by some to be replacing waning supplies of blackwood because of its also wonderful and durable character. Other dense pretty stable (inherently) woods include cocobolo and ironwood. Usually, some of the grainier looking (and often exotically beautiful) woods (like red lancewood) are a bit less inherently stable. Woods used for instruments need to be properly aged and can be treated. I've owned custom knives with handles of maple burl treated with 24 layers of crazy glue for example that were impervious to most things; I don't think that would necessarily be a good idea for instruments.

Others like Paul Busman and Loren have more professional experience with such matters and you can find their remarks with searches probably.

That said, however, I ascribe to the theory that it's the other variables that are more important to the tonal qualities of a whistle - internal relationships of the parts, voicing including minute dimensional differences and ratios in blade, etc. I do still seem to notice though overall some subtle differences among whistles due to materials alone - brass "warmer" or "darker" than aluminum, nickel silver "brighter" than brass, etc. Very subjective. Meanwhile, I've also noted that delrin and PVC can sound just as good and be just as responsive and sound warm like qualities attributed to wood whilst some wood whistles can sound like shyte.

Uh, the biggest difference remains the player.

I can probably make a whole batch of whistles made of varying materials sound pretty much the same (mediocre).

Philo

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:28 pm

Hmmmm....

thistledown · Post by **thistledown** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:52 pm

I can't really speak much for whistle tone when it comes to different woods, but being a guitarist primarily, I would have to say that yes, wood matters. It all has to do with grain structures and density and yada yada yada.... It's all about resonance. That and what PhilO said probably.

BEC · Post by **BEC** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:27 am

Indeed, a pretty can of worms. Another place where this is very controversial is in recorder circles. Here's a discussion on the subject by my favorite source for quality recorders: http://www.aswltd.com/guiderec.htm#woods

But my own anecdotal experience is that the characteristics of the particular piece of wood rather than its species is perhaps more important. I have had two Keung Superio alto recorders both made from palisander rosewood. I have a soprano from the same line that has a brilliant clear tone which can really soar. When I ordered my alto from ASW in the same wood I was expecting similar characteristics, but when I got the instrument it had a lovely tone but without the brilliance I was expecting. I mentioned this to Dr. Green at ASW and sometime later he dropped me a note telling me he'd received another Superio alto that was made of a particularly dense/hard piece of palisander and that it might meet my expectations better than the one I'd had. He offered a straight up exchange (wonderful!) and I now have what I was looking for.

I will also say that, however, my experience with different woods (at least softer vs. harder types) pretty much goes along the lines described in the reference above.

I've yet to step into the realm of wood whistles, but I would expect to find similar subtle effects of different woods.

All that said, I agree that biggest influences are first the player, then the voicing, then the material - and I'm sure that's as true of whistles as it is for recorders.

MarcusR · Post by **MarcusR** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:32 am

The short and easy answers:

Q1: Can you hear tonal differences between wooden flute/whistles of different types of wood?
A1: Yes

Q2: Are these differences primarily related to the types of wood used.
A2: NO!

There you have it!
So you might just as well get a concrete whistle instead

/MarcusR

Guidus · Post by **Guidus** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:25 am

There's a famous experiment involving flutes made of concrete (sic), see :

http://www.makersgallery.com/concrete/other.html#FLUTES

http://www.phy.duke.edu/ugrad/thesis/hu ... thesis.doc

I'm a scientific type, I know some of the physics and I agree that in theory the material doesn't count. But - take a Dixon Polymer and a Dixon Trad: same head, different body, completely different sound! In theory, only the air vibrates; in practice, also the whistle body does. An oscilloscope will help you inspect the power spectra of the sound to discern any differences.

That said, huge differences in sound are caused by tiny variations in fipple/labium geometry.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:39 am

PhilO wrote:That said, however, I ascribe to the theory that it's the other variables that are more important to the tonal qualities of a whistle - internal relationships of the parts, voicing including minute dimensional differences and ratios in blade, etc. ... Meanwhile, I've also noted that delrin and PVC can sound just as good and be just as responsive and sound warm like qualities attributed to wood whilst some wood whistles can sound like shyte.

Uh, the biggest difference remains the player.

Philo

Yeah, what he said

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:42 am

thistledown wrote:I can't really speak much for whistle tone when it comes to different woods, but being a guitarist primarily, I would have to say that yes, wood matters. It all has to do with grain structures and density and yada yada yada.... It's all about resonance. That and what PhilO said probably.

In a guitar you have several square feet of thin hardwood vibrating, so the wood definitely makes a difference. However, as someone else pointed out, in something as small as a whistle, it's basically the air column that's vibrating so as long as the wood is reasonably hard there's little difference. Balsa would probably sound pretty dull ( and NO, I'm not going to try it!)

pipersgrip · Post by **pipersgrip** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:38 am

oh ok guys, thank you. thats the answer i was looking for.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:01 am

When it comes to whistles, I think the hand cut windway blade has much much more to do with whistle-to-whistle variation than the material.

Sweets are no longer using dymondwood, preferring a new laminate called Permali. Now, that stuff sounds lot's different!*

Doc

*Disclaimer:

Doc is, of course, completely out of his mind on this point. The truth is Permali sounds like Dymondwood..sounds like..Blackwood...etc. We've re-adjusted his medications and he's resting comfortably.