Rudall and Rose 3884

[Jennie]

Remember, the right hand was ANGLED toward the holes, not in perpendicular as they are today, so the move upward from D to F was actually very easy.
dm

Really?

That's what felt the most natural to me. I've been working on switching to perpendicular because I've never seen anyone else play like I did.

Even though there are good reasons for playing perpendicular, it's nice to know I'm not the only one with the angled approach, even if they're all dead.

Jennie

[Cathy Wilde]

OMGOMGOMGOMG What if ..... that's what killed 'em???



Hi, Jennie!

[bradhurley]

I seem to remember that Josie McDermott held the flute this way as well. I'd have to pull out my Come West Along the Road video that has him playing an air to confirm it, but in my memory I see him angling the fingers down on the lower three holes.

And yes, Cathy, he's dead too

[RudallRose]

the angle not only allowed for the comfortable placement of RH3 between the very small space between the short-F key and the foot keys (for those who do not rotate it outward, typically toward the audience)...

but it allowed RH1 to more easily depress the long-C key (and second-touch to a Bb and sometimes the trill-E key....etc) since angled, the finger is now next to or just above the key touch tip.

With a perpendicular grip, however, we must move the RH1 sideways to activate the C key.

Held in the angled manner, though, RH3 becomes even further away since it's now not only lateral distance but linear that makes the hole so darn challenging for some!

whoever said this was easy!?

dm

[Jennie]

the angle not only allowed for the comfortable placement of RH3 between the very small space between the short-F key and the foot keys (for those who do not rotate it outward, typically toward the audience)...

but it allowed RH1 to more easily depress the long-C key (and second-touch to a Bb and sometimes the trill-E key....etc) since angled, the finger is now next to or just above the key touch tip.

With a perpendicular grip, however, we must move the RH1 sideways to activate the C key.

Held in the angled manner, though, RH3 becomes even further away since it's now not only lateral distance but linear that makes the hole so darn challenging for some!

whoever said this was easy!?

dm

Then why not just move the RH 3 hole laterally? I know some makers do this... when did the grip shift happen? Am I hopeless, or was I onto something retro and wonderful?

At present I have no keys to trip over, so can't make a comparison of key stretches.

How come the more I learn, the more confused I become?

Jennie (not dead yet, but a day closer to it than yesterday)

[RudallRose]

that's a great question, jennie, and best left to a maker to answer.
Since the holes are drilled individually, i don't suspect it's a line-up issue.

My thought: moving the hole laterally (assuming foot keys....otherwise there's no need for the angled hand) would interfere with the location of the foot keys. Although they can be rotated, they would then be too far down/up from the pinky for them to be operated comfortably.

That's a guess, though, from a player's point of view, not a maker's.

Maybe Mr. McGee will weigh in?

dm

[treeshark]

I asked Chris why he thought the saddle was of the same manufacture so he sent me his reasons for coming to that conclusion...

quote:
You can never say for sure who put anything on any flute. However you can say this;

1. The saddle is of very high quality and is double sprung in the same manner style and quality as Rudall.

2.The pad seat is cut in exactly the same style and quality as Rudall and is identical to that flutes other seats.

3.The key and spring are identical to Rudalls keys.

4. It started life without the long C and F keys as did many other Rudall flutes of that period.

5.There are two blocks on a flute that you would think twice with messing with; the bflat block and the low section main block.
unquote

I shant comment I'm far too higgerent on the subject!

[Rob Sharer]

Just thought I'd elaborate on what David was saying about Christy Barry's short-F key technique. I used to do backing for Christy a couple of times a week at O'Connor's pub in Doolin, which meant I got paid to put the guitar on autopilot and watch Christy's hands (at least, until it was fag-break time, I mean, song time). I know, I know, what a racket. The gig, that is, not the session. Well, that too.

Anyhow, Christy's short-F technique always fascinated me. For those not familiar with his playing, he is one of the most amazing players on the keys that you'll find anywhere - totally fearless in F, Bb, C, whatever. He uses the short-F to D move often, including in reels at session tempo. I would describe the movement of his finger off the key to the D hole as a sort of pop, like snapping your fingers. It's instantaneous, and with a bit of practice, achievable by normal mortals as well.

As an aside, I've also observed Christy using his low C key in the second octave, almost to the exclusion of the usual ways of playing C, to great effect. Just another reason to restore and play one of these great, old 8-key flutes.

[kkrell]

Just thought I'd elaborate on what David was saying about Christy Barry's short-F key technique. I used to do backing for Christy a couple of times a week at O'Connor's pub in Doolin, which meant I got paid to put the guitar on autopilot and watch Christy's hands (at least, until it was fag-break time, I mean, song time). I know, I know, what a racket. The gig, that is, not the session. Well, that too.

Anyhow, Christy's short-F technique always fascinated me. For those not familiar with his playing, he is one of the most amazing players on the keys that you'll find anywhere - totally fearless in F, Bb, C, whatever. He uses the short-F to D move often, including in reels at session tempo. I would describe the movement of his finger off the key to the D hole as a sort of pop, like snapping your fingers. It's instantaneous, and with a bit of practice, achievable by normal mortals as well.

As an aside, I've also observed Christy using his low C key in the second octave, almost to the exclusion of the usual ways of playing C, to great effect. Just another reason to restore and play one of these great, old 8-key flutes.

Hi Rob,
Your track with Christy on "Wooden Flute Obsession 3" is a great example of how he can use the keys, and how he can be so comfortable playing An Buachaillín Bán in 2 different keys in that set.

[RudallRose]

Comments on Wilkes' thoughts (if i can be so bold...).

>>You can never say for sure who put anything on any flute.<<

Absolutely. To do otherwise without proof is ignorance at its finest!

>>1. The saddle is of very high quality and is double sprung in the same manner style and quality as Rudall.

Many other manufacturers did the double-spring technique, though perhaps none as well as RR.

>>2.The pad seat is cut in exactly the same style and quality as Rudall and is identical to that flutes other seats.

I thought as much, and this lends me to believe the holes were original to the flute, ergo the blocks are replacements instead of the keys being added to the original later. Pad seats changed in style quickly in this period.

>>3.The key and spring are identical to Rudalls keys.

Again, leads one to believe these items existed with the original flute rather than added later.

>>4. It started life without the long C and F keys as did many other Rudall flutes of that period.

Chris still hasn't said how he knows this; And my catalogue work shows very FEW RR flutes started life without the C and F keys! The number that did are easily in the inferior, otherwise we are to believe all those other flutes had F and C keys added later. What a racket!!

>>5.There are two blocks on a flute that you would think twice with messing with; the bflat block and the low section main block.

This would explain that a broken C shoulder would result in a the shaving of the remainder and insertion of the silver.
Again, most of what Chriss offers seems to lend toward the repair of a broken key rather than the addition of one.

And Mr. Gallagher did a wonderful job of recutting and reinserting an entirely new footjoint main block on a Siccama flute I own to replace the mangled plastic replacement that had been put there. So marvelous you'd believe it to be original. Delicate work at its finest.

Again, this is merely a review of an opinion. I'm not likely to believe either opinion supercedes another.

I suspect iif the Bb block were finished in a rudall manner, matching another RR without longC key in style, then I'd favor the explanation. But this doesn't appear the case here.
[/quote]

[treeshark]

I'm not wedded to either course of events really, but one small fly in the ointment is that the key is made to pivot where the saddle is, which is not where the block would be. If the block was in a position suitable for the key it would foul the b flat hole. So it looks as if the key was made to fit the saddle rather than the other way round.
I've never seen the saddle arrangement before, would it have been a common approach at the time?
Were patent heads fitted to the more workaday Rudalls?
Rob

[Cathy Wilde]

Being as my project flute (i.e., the "I'm gonna figure out how to sound right on this sucker if it kills me")(I still haven't, alas, though on the plus side I'm still not dead, either) sported an empty block and beeswax plug where the long F key was supposed to be, I got pretty used to the short-F-to-D transition -- to the point where I never really bothered to figure out the long F on the flute that did have one.

Regardless, I've never been able to do it without at least a teeny E-burble between the D & F.

Now however, I have a fantastic long F key courtesy of Mr. Gallagher. It's so fun and bouncy and perfectly balanced that I'm finally starting to fool with it. It certainly makes life on some of the Fahey stuff and The Yellow Heifer smoother!

Nonetheless .... a big thanks to you, Rob, for letting us know it is do-able. I'll keep using the short F, too and see if I can get better at it.

[RudallRose]

i think you might be right about the block issue. on second, closer look, there is a lot of critical work that would go on to remove the offending blocks. Not impossible, though.

But the shoulder of the key would be near the Bb hole, as many often are, usually there is a cut-away into that block to accommodate the hole.
Here's a rudall with the blocks as they should be for a Bb and C key.



Notice the guide for the key.....
and the pivot are different.

[treeshark]

But the shoulder of the key would be near the Bb hole, as many often are, usually there is a cut-away into that block to accommodate the hole.

Yes on the flute of Chris' I have the Bflat seat takes a small corner off the Cnat block, from squinting at photos of Rudalls they seem similar. But if a block was to acommodate the key on my flute the block would be nearly level with the hole which would, I'm thinking, mean a much larger cut away on the block.
I had a sudden thought the hole might have been moved on the key but I checked it hasn't. I doubt it would have been filled as the saddle would have hidden it.
A puzzle, we will never know for sure I suppose.

[RudallRose]

nope , you're right, we never willl

but sure is fun trying, eh? !