Let's Clear the Chiff Once and For All

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:32 pm

We've gone round about with definitions and James and I had a brief stab at applying the definition (the one about the noise before the note comes out, or something)to specific whistles just so we'd all understand one another when applying to specific whistles. Problem was, I've been playing mostly highenders and James mostly lowenders (This is not judgmental, but descriptive)so we couldn't come to terms.

Could some of the more erudite among you - Peter, Loren, Jessie, etc. - please label as high, medium, low or no chiff with respect to certain well-known high and low end whistles. I've always sort of intuited this and sometimes think maybe I get it wrong - like am I confusing timbre or resonance with chiff or something.

High end - Copeland, ABell, Overton, TW, Grinter, O'Riordan, Burke, Sindt, Silkstone

Lower end - Shaw, Susato, Dixon,Clarke, Feadog, Walton

Newer entrants - Cilliain improved, Busman, Elfsong

Any difference with respect to materials, wood v metal or plastic?

Maybe this just isn't so important, but there's so much talk around it and it's half the name of our very Board!

Regards,

Philo

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:35 pm

Hi Phil, It's a good question. Looks like it's met with underwhelming interest, though. If chiff is that sound that some whistles made as you cut into the note, the Walton's Mellow D has to be high on the chiffiness scale. And I love it.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:35 pm

I would agree that a Waltons Mello D has quite a bit of chiff.

Maybe we're slowly zeroing in on something here.

Although I think there's enough of an "I know it when I hear it" element to this (at bit like art, huh?) that I doubt a hard and fast definition that works in all cases will ever be found.

No harm trying though, and it gives us a good excuse to tell about our favorite whistles and why we like 'em.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

fatveg · Post by **fatveg** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:48 pm

So to me, Chiff is the components of the sound which are outside of the normal overtone series, including the white(ish) air noises that come when you first aspirate but also which (in my Chiffy Shaw at least) last thoughout the sustained note. I believe this is in keeping with the Organ use of the term, which includes the air noises.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:54 am

I'm still not of the opinion that chiff in a whistle can be equated with chiff in an organ because of the way the whistle is played. I think of it more as a raspy sound or something. Given that caveat, let me be the first to respond. I'll do these on a six-point scale with six being the most chiff, only because it's convenient:

6: Overton
5: Harper
4: Thin Weasel, Feadog
3: Water Weasel, Sindt, Wilson Woods, Clare, Generation
2: Burke, Abell, Silkstone Alloy, Busman, Oak, Dixon
1: Rose, Susato

The breathy sound of Shaws and Clarkes is something I can't really compare to other whistles.

Some of these I've only played in keys other than D (Overton low-D and -G, Harper G and A, I only own Gens in other keys).

It's also important to point out that most of these are handmade instruments and will vary somewhat, and I'm sure the sound of the injection-molded ones will vary with tweaking, etc.

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:59 am

One of the reasons why Na Píobairí Uilleann was created was Brendan Breathnach's irritation at what he saw as an excessive preoccupation with organisation, structures and rules and regulations, to the detriment of the music, in Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the national organisation to promote traditional music.

An example of this mentality which he liked to cite was a proposal to award bonus marks to people who played Clark's whistles in competitions because the sound was more traditional but they were harder to play than Generations as they required more breath.

The proposal was inspired by the fact that bonus marks were awarded to pupils who took State exams in Irish rather than in English.

The "traditional sound" in question was mainly a matter of chiff, though I'm sure the ardent Gaels who defended the Clark's probably never heard the word.

Actually, as I call them ardent Gaels, it just occurs to me for the first time that maybe they were also more comfortable with a whistle that didn't have "British made" written so visibly on it. But they wouldn't have been so petty-minded, would they? ...would they?

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:18 am

On 2002-10-10 08:59, Roger O'Keeffe wrote:
....in Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the national organisation to promote traditional music.

An example of this mentality which he liked to cite was a proposal to award bonus marks to people who played Clark's whistles in competitions because the sound was more traditional but they were harder to play than Generations as they required more breath.
....

The "traditional sound" in question was mainly a matter of chiff, though I'm sure the ardent Gaels who defended the Clark's probably never heard the word.

Actually, as I call them ardent Gaels, it just occurs to me for the first time that maybe they were also more comfortable with a whistle that didn't have "British made" written so visibly on it. But they wouldn't have been so petty-minded, would they? ...would they?

I have one whistle which I bought during the early 80s it has a green top and a sticker with an Irish harp on it. It was on the market during the times the hungerstrikers were dying and, let's say, sentiments were running high. It is exactly like a Generation in every other aspect. I always considered the possibility this was a way they tried to get around the 'British made' label.

As for Comhaltas [and I won't go into Breandan Breathnach's 'Comhaltas interruptus' quote]. Last year I was looking over the Spillane tutor for the pipes which has some photographs of old pipers. One of them was Sean Dempsey whose main claim to fame today, if somewhat dubiously, is that he was 'the piper that played before Hitler'. Well he did and for Goebbels and Goering and the rest of them too. Actually when arriving on the stage in the Berlin arena where he was to play it turned out no chairs were provided, apparently Goebbels realised the pickle they had put the poor piper in and ordered an SS man on stage, told him to sit on hands and knees so the piper could use him as a seat during his performance, which went off without a hitch.

Anyhow, we were looking at the photograph and I remarked upon that incident. The man next to me who will go unnamed but who is a very wellknown authority in the Irish music world muttered 'I didn't realise they had Comhaltas in those days'

[Which is only to show that not everyone, far from it, thinks CCE can claim the position of keeper of the true tradition or is happy about the way they try to do so anyway]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-10-10 10:35 ]</font>

Michael Sullivan · Post by **Michael Sullivan** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:41 am

Not having an authority other than my own ear, I may say that if the "white noise" sound (a very good description, I think) that comes along with the tone in the Walton's mellow d is a good example of chiff, then the clarke seems not to have much. That breathy tone doesn't have the covering-up quality of white noise at all--more of an impression that the sound is coming to you from a slight distance on the wind. But not much of the rasp.

What people think is a good whistle sound probably has a lot to do with their opinions about chiff. I got the Walton's first and liked it fine, but when I acquired a few more whistles I pretty quickly stopped playing it because the clearer tone of say the Sweettone seemed better to me. But I suppose one could easily think otherwise if that slightly rasped-up sound was considered an asset.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:46 am

That's why I love this Board - you invariably get so much more interesting stuff than you asked for. Charlie - you omitted Copeland; because you haven't yet played one? I'm particularly curious about that one, because of its great resonance and unique timbre.

Thanks

Philo

srt19170 · Post by **srt19170** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:05 am

Have you looked at the spectrum analyzer thread? "Attack chiff" shows up pretty clearly on those graphs.

-- Scott

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:10 am

On 2002-10-10 09:46, PhilO wrote:
That's why I love this Board - you invariably get so much more interesting stuff than you asked for. Charlie - you omitted Copeland; because you haven't yet played one? I'm particularly curious about that one, because of its great resonance and unique timbre.

Thanks

Philo

I played one about five years ago. I remember the upper octave being especially pure but not so tinny. That was before I had many reference points, though, so I really wouldn't know how to rate it.

Charlie

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:53 am

--quote--
Not having an authority other than my own ear, I may say that if the "white noise" sound (a very good description, I think) that comes along with the tone in the Walton's mellow d is a good example of chiff, then the clarke seems not to have much. That breathy tone doesn't have the covering-up quality of white noise at all--more of an impression that the sound is coming to you from a slight distance on the wind. But not much of the rasp
--endquote--

I should point out that I have had several Clarke whistles, but one is a very old one purchased somewhere around 1979.

It has a horribly strong "raspiness" to its sound and actually can sound pretty unpleasant, and the second octave is shrieky.

The new Clarkes have a much softer, purer sound, and that harsh raspiness is gone. Actually my Clarke D is probably the most pure-toned whistle I own right now.

If you want to hear an example of a raspy Clarke, listen to some of the recordings of Seamus Ennis playing whistle.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Bretton · Post by **Bretton** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:06 am

My chiffiest whistle is my Oak. It has a very definite "CH" noise at the beginning of each note. I'd always thought that chiff was just the "CH" at the beginning/attack of a note and not necessarily the airy sounds later on.

-brett

Teri-K · Post by **Teri-K** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:21 am

On 2002-10-10 12:06, Bretton wrote:
My chiffiest whistle is my Oak. It has a very definite "CH" noise at the beginning of each note. I'd always thought that chiff was just the "CH" at the beginning/attack of a note and not necessarily the airy sounds later on.

-brett

You're right, that's what chiff is.

Teri

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:26 am

Chiff is the breathy sound of
organ pipes (and whistles, which
are organ pipes with holes in them).
This strikes me as a pretty
good definition. Copelands have
a chiffy, flutey sound. If you
really want to hear a lot of
chiff, the Clarke classic has it. Best