Flute Density Data

[Doug_Tipple]

There are many ways to compare the materials that are commonly used for making flutes, such as density, hardness, strength and durability, appearance, etc. With regard to Irish flutes the most common materials are the hardwoods (maple, rosewood, cocuswood, boxwood, African blackwood, ironwood, and others) and various polymers, including pvc and delrin. Material density is an important physical property for these materials, as higher density materials are thought to have good acoustic properties. Anyway, searching around on the internet, I have assembled a short table of material densities. Please keep in mind that water is the standard for density, and by definition the density of water is 1.00 or one gram per cubic centimeter. Therefore, materials with a density less than 1.00 will float on water.

Maple, density .75 g/cc.
African ebony, density .96 – 1.12 g/cc.
Ironwood, density 1.22-1.28 g/cc.
PVC (poly vinyl chloride), density 1.38 g/cc.
Delrin, density 1.41 g/cc.

My motivation for doing the above search was to attempt to support my contention that polymer flutes compared very favorably with flutes made from the finest hardwoods in terms of material density. But, like I mentioned before, density is only one of the important qualities of a good flute-making material.

Comparing PVC and Delrin (Acetal):
PVC, density 1.38, Rockwell hardness R112, water absorption = .10% in 24 hours
Delrin, density 1.41, Rockwell hardness R120, water absorption = .25% in 24 hours

Please feel free to add or correct any data on this list.

[I.D.10-t]

Just for fun,

Aluminium 2.70 g/cc
Glass 2.1-5.5 g/cc
Ceramic 2.8-6 g/cc
Titanium 4.506 g/cc
Iron 7.86 g/cc
Silver 10.49 g/cc
Lead 11.34 g/cc
Gold 19.3 g/cc
Tungsten 19.25 g/cc
Platinum 21.45 g/cc

I must say that some of the numbers surprised me.

Rockwell hardness can change due to small additions of other elements and processing of metals, so I did not look for it.

[Easily_Deluded_Fool]

... like I mentioned before, density in only one of the important qualities of a good flute-making material.

Please feel free to add or correct any data on this list.

No mention of the density of the player

[Jack Bradshaw]

... like I mentioned before, density in only one of the important qualities of a good flute-making material.

Please feel free to add or correct any data on this list.

No mention of the density of the player

The parameter of interest is actually the acoustic impedance wrt air....usually goes up w/ density and hardness...the higher it is the less loss to the wall from pressure fluctuations......porosity enters here as well

There are also the viscous and thermal wall losses to consider so the smoothness and thermal conductivity come into play........

[cocusflute]

So would a flute of higher density be better? Why not a conical flute made of metal then- like one of Michael Copeland's whistles?

[Wormdiet]

So would a flute of higher density be better? Why not a conical flute made of metal then- like one of Michael Copeland's whistles?

I've wondered that myself. Maybe because the sound of cylindrical flute was seen as preferable for classical music? (Not trying to be flip here, but serious.) I would also suspect that a metal conical flute is harder to make than a cylinder. (But then again, saxophones. . .. )

Didnt Terry post about a conical metal flute that had been designed to use in tropical colonies where a cocus flute wouldn't be happy? (No pun intended!)

[Jayhawk]

The conical metal flute Terry referred to was Clinton's flute for India or something similar.

I still want one...but no one seems to be sending free ones my way.

Eric

[Doug_Tipple]

So would a flute of higher density be better? Why not a conical flute made of metal then- like one of Michael Copeland's whistles?

To answer your question, yes, I personally think that a wooden flute made from African blackwood would sound "better" than an identical flute made from a less-dense wood, such as oak, walnut or maple. However, others on this board would argue that it shouldn't make any difference what type of material that the flute was made from. There have been long threads about this topic here at C & F.

I am not familiar with Michael Copeland's conical whistles, but I think that most conical metal whistles are made pretty much like a tin whistle with a simple taper along the length of the whistle. Most wooden flutes, on the other hand, have a more complex conical bore. The same kind of construction would be much more difficult with metal, where it is ideal to have a thin wall in order to keep down the weight of the flute. Ideally, if you could make a thin-wall metal flute with a complex conical bore, I think that it most likely would sound good. For the reasons already mentioned, I don't think that you will see many metal flutes made like this.

[I.D.10-t]

The conical metal flute Terry referred to was Clinton's flute for India or something similar.

I still want one...but no one seems to be sending free ones my way.

Eric

This one.

The raised finger holes are a nice touch, the key work is a fairly original design (read the article). No worries of cracking.

Ideally, if you could make a thin-wall metal flute with a complex conical bore, I think that it most likely would sound good. For the reasons already mentioned, I don't think that you will see many metal flutes made like this.

Michael Copeland’soriginal method was to make a mandrill and pound the sheet metal down with a rawhide mallet and then press it through a lead doughnut. Unless there is a flair at the end of the flute, it might be possible, with little additional effort, to make a non-conical mandrill and form a body that way. Making the head with raised lip plate would probably be the as difficult.

[Bart Wijnen]

So would a flute of higher density be better? Why not a conical flute made of metal then- like one of Michael Copeland's whistles?

To answer your question, yes, I personally think that a wooden flute made from African blackwood would sound "better" than an identical flute made from a less-dense wood, such as oak, walnut or maple. However, others on this board would argue that it shouldn't make any difference what type of material that the flute was made from. There have been long threads about this topic here at C & F.

If a flute of higher density automatically would sound better, then the platinum boehm-flute (used for Varèse's 'Density 21.5') would sound best. I have a record with Rampal playing on it and - though I normally love the man's tone - I can't get very enthousiastic about it.

And Doug (or anybody else), please help me on this one: is the difference between polymer and PVC/Delrin the same as between metal and silver/gold? If so, is a M&E polymer flute thus made of PVC.

Mine doesn't float btw.

[Jayhawk]

I can answer one of your question Bart...the M&E is made of PVC. It's food grade PVC that comes in rod stock and is then machined just like a normal wooden flute. Delrin is acetal - a different polymer product.

Obviously, they're very similar, and from my experience playing flutes made of both materials - both accoustically good.

Eric

[Bart Wijnen]

Thanks Eric!

That answered my question, except for the fact that my dictionary fails on 'food grade'.

[Sillydill]

I was going to save this for a thread of my own, but think it is applicable here.

The following is a summary translation by Jack’s hero John Coltman (Yes, the concrete flute guy). He translated an original manuscript by Charles Victor Mahillon (prominent Belgian instrument manufacturer around the turn of the 19th century). The following links are to the scanned pages from Coltman’s book.

The gist of the summarized translation is that Mahillon made a wooden trumpet (bugle). He then took it all over the world and did the behind curtains test of having someone play his brass and wooden trumpets.

Seems that no one could tell the difference.








I think I will probably repost these images in a separate thread later, to follow with my own conclusion.



All the Best!

Jordan

[Guinness]

Material density is an important physical property for these materials, as higher density materials are thought to have good acoustic properties.

What are "good acoustic properties"? For example, Sitka spruce is favored for guitar tops and its density is much lower than the hardwoods:

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm

[Jack Bradshaw]

Good stuff Jordan !!!!!

"Good" acoustical properties are in the ear of the beholder.....