Cloggy 2 Burke whistles. Warning: Controversy

[Denny]

Now there's something to really get my wife interested in my music - a diamond fippled whistle!

Philo

ya gotta love a dreamer

edit to add PhilO's post due to page break

[Whitmores75087]

The genesis of this thread puts my in mind of a events in MA circa 1692. Fortunately, the folks on this board have shown their true mettle and kicked in with helpful advice. I'd hate to see an excellent artisan like Mike pilloried on a framework of innuendo.
Anyhoo, that being said, gunk builds up fairly quickly in my whistles. There is one product in the universe that cleans them out, and only one. It's Cascade Complete (automatic dishwasher fluid, also available as crystals). NOT regular Cascade, only the "Complete". It has some sort of enzyme action (?) that just eats up the gunk to the very last molecule. Dissolve the liquid (or crystals) in hot water, and soak overnight.
Though it may be that Delrin simply ages and changes, as someone suggested. I have one and it's one of my favorites.

[The Weekenders]

I'll say this: the fipple+windway are two of *the most* geometrically sensitive items on the planet. *Any* little bit of shape-shifting (burrs, build-up, &cet), and the sound can suffer.

so if the problem is something that has developed, it seems that the clogging may be due to build-up. but then it would seem cleaning would get rid of said build-up. having tried cleaning and being fairly sure there shouldn't be anything left in there, how does one get rid of non-existant build-up? or am I missing something?


Sara

Yeah, my theory is that my whistles are clean but I need to let a layer of soap have a chance to create the non-clogging property, Sara. I keep washing it away, I think. I still wonder if the new delrin had an original sheen though, that has slightly changed, become a bit more clog-prone on my most heavily-used whistles. New Burkes, in my experience, don't need any soap treatment at all for quite a while. That was the case with both of these whistles. I didn't put soap in any of em. I play my low whistles much less, so they are more like-new. They never clog or make weird sounds and I have never touched em with soap.

Today, being off work, I finally get to do something about all this, thank goodness.

[dfernandez77]

I'm not a physicist, and I'm not a chemist, but a little knowledge and a little common sense tells me you are probably on to the root cause of the change.

I'd guess that over time there has been a minute change in the surface layer of the Delrin. It only takes a tiny change to effect the hydrophilic properties - probably increasing slightly with time for Delrin. The water vapor in your breath finds it easier to attach itself to the Delrin while passing through.

As you know, it just takes a tiny bit of water (or what have you) in the windway to change the voice of a whistle.

My DBSBT plays a bit different than when I first got it too. It could probably use a good cleaning. But it's still well behaved, sweet voiced, and easily playable. Mike does excellent work.

Good luck with your mission.

[The Weekenders]

UPDATE:

After the treatment and dry, the C is doing pretty well, the Eb is still clog-prone but not nearly as much as before. I can live with it, but I end up overblowing on the high "B" equivalent just to fight the condensation, which makes it go sharp. But hey, most whistles challenge you on that particular note..

The C has become more of a pleasantly throaty whistle than clear but as I said, it was playable through some reels without incident.

It will take some more time to be definitive but I will re-treat with more frequency. I treated five of my whistles. Basically, I took some Dawn, put a little water in it, got a strip of cloth from an old sheet, soaked it, then drew it threw the windway and "flossed" it, back and forth. Then I did run a bit of water over it to wash away the suds. Then I dipped the whole fipple back into the solution up to the windway and only dried off the exterior. About halfway through, I tried what I describe below:

When I was doing the treatment and had done the final dip in the soap solution, I decided to blow out the excess by blocking the end of the whistle and all of the holes, then blowing into the windway so the liquid would come out the front. Interestingly, on the C, the soap bubbled around the edges of the block, rather than just straight out the slot. This happened on one of the Ds, too. I don't know if it matters that the block is completely air-tight in the body. I had noticed this a long time ago while doing something similar but never queried Mike about it, which I will tomorrow.

So I think it helped.

[TyroneShoelaces]

Interestingly, on the C, the soap bubbled around the edges of the block, rather than just straight out the slot. This happened on one of the Ds, too. I don't know if it matters that the block is completely air-tight in the body. I had noticed this a long time ago while doing something similar but never queried Mike about it, which I will tomorrow.

that is interesting. i would think that leakage would have some impact on how well the whistle sounds. i can't wait to hear mike's views.

on the issue of the quality of burke whistles in general, i can say that we own three of them: 2 composites and a brass. they are, for me, easier to play than some whistles i've tried, and they produce a nice tone overall.

concerning the cleaning: mike told me some time ago to never run the composites under a stream of water or to soak them in water because they contain wood fiber. he suggested a couple of drops of liquid detergent in the windway, then blowing out the excess, and letting the whistle stand up to air dry. when i mentioned that i had been gently running a small piece of paper back and forth thru the windway to get the crud out he said that was a sure fire way to ruin the whistle. even the most miniscule scratch or whatnot inside the windway and the whistle will never sound the same again. i'm a little surprised that he's now recommending pipe cleaners and other objects for cleaning. although, i have to admit, that blowing detergent didn't feel like it was always getting the thing as clean as it should have been.

thanks for keeping us updated.


~shoelaces~

[Tommy]

UPDATE:
Interestingly, on the C, the soap bubbled around the edges of the block, rather than just straight out the slot. This happened on one of the Ds, too. I don't know if it matters that the block is completely air-tight in the body. I had noticed this a long time ago while doing something similar but never queried Mike about it, which I will tomorrow.

So I think it helped.

It depends on how much air is coming from around the block.

If you just see that it gets a little wet, it might be OK. Lots of whistles do that.

If it is making bubbles as it comes out it might be to much air and affect the performance of the whistle.

If air is making a draft on your chin and the moisture is dropping to the floor. It is most likely affecting the performance of the whistles.

Put some tape or sticky tac over the place where air is coming out, and then try the whistle.

[MTGuru]

My favorite cleaner when I occasionally need to remove gunk from the windway is a match from an ordinary book of paper matches. Break the match off, then mash the bottom a bit so the paper fibers form a little "brush". Wet the "brush" with some Duponol or your favorite anti-clog liquid, then gently run it into the windway, using the matchhead as a handle. If it's not long enough, you can bend the match slightly and do the same on the exit side of the windway. Then rinse with a few drops of your anti-clog elixir and let air dry. The paper match is stiff enough to clean without applying any pressure, and the little "brush" not abrasive enough (I hope!) to harm.

I don't know if this is any better or safer than a strip of soft cloth. It seems a *lot* safer than a pipe cleaner with a stiff wire that could accidentally scratch the surface. But if any of these techniques are considered harmful, it would be good to know!

[Mitch]

OK, I asked Du Pont.

I think I'll change my family coat of arms to the Goat-Rampant-and-Windmill

OTOH, it would be a great shame if it prooves that Delrin has problems - it machines just like hardwood and sounds similar to African Blackwood - better in my opinion. Metals corrode, woods can crack and move, plastics have other challenges - there are strategies to acomodate all that. Nothing lasts forever - it's all a relative thing and I find it somehow comforting to have a relationship with my instrument beyond just picking-it up and playing.

Hey Ho, got a call from Du Pont. The rep said that "Delrin is not affected by water or saliva over the long term - the surface may absorb a little but Delrin was specifically designed to be used in wet applications and the surface topology will not be affected." Here's the follow-up email:
-------------
Quote:
"Mitch,

Table 7.1 in the attached design guide covers chemical resistance of Delrin. Saliva has no known effect on Delrin.

Regards

Carl Hollins
DuPont (Australia)"
End Quote.
-----------------
(the table mentioned is http://plastics.dupont.com/plastics/pdf ... DELDGe.pdf )

Just looking at the table - the good news is: Delrin is not affected by alcohol(all types)!!! yay!!

It is affected by chlorines and amonias and gets cranky if left in the sun too long.

So decayed delrin is not the culprit. Delrin rules

[harpmaker]

This assumes that Week's spit doesn't have high concentrations of Chlorine and ammonia. Don't forget, he does live in California, and many residents of other states have long suspected that Californians are from another planet.

[The Weekenders]

Nyuk. Well our local water is treated with chloramine, whatever that is. I know you have to treat it or else it will kill your aquatic pets.

Mike has asked me to send the whistles back for the price of return postage. He read this thread. He didn't think the air leak around the fipple block was of import, but that an airleak around the o-ring would be more germane, if there was one. He did mention that in the pre black-tips, he didn't seal the block exactly, but has done so since.

He reiterated not to soak the whistles or run clear water through 'em.

Hey, thanks for taking trouble to write Dupont and all. We all have learned stuff.

[FJohnSharp]

Interestingly, on the C, the soap bubbled around the edges of the block, rather than just straight out the slot. This happened on one of the Ds, too. I don't know if it matters that the block is completely air-tight in the body. I had noticed this a long time ago while doing something similar but never queried Mike about it, which I will tomorrow.

So I think it helped.

That happened on a Dixon Trad for me. I wonder if the differences in expandability between metal and plastic cause the seal to deterioriate, especially in temperature extremes like 90 degree summers and 0 degree winters.

[Whitmores75087]

This may be relevant. Take a look at the section of the barrel that acts as the labium (it's the section that you see in the window.) Is it sharp or dull? When I got my DCS whistle, the head was loose. I could turn it to where a section of un-sharpened barrel was acting as the labium. The result was a severely dull sound. I lined up the correct (sharpened) section so that it was visible in the window and crazy glued the thing in position.
Could the answer be this simple? Has the head turned?