Tongue usage when playing with tight embouchure

[Eldarion]

For flute players who play with a tight embouchure, I have a question to pose regarding the tongue.

I find that when I play with a relatively tight embouchure to get a reedy tone, my tongue is somewhere behind the back of my lower teeth. I find it kind of aids the airstream to be more forcefully/sharply expelled. Is this a "bad"/disadvantageous habbit? I find that my tongue will be less flexible then and I can't do cleanly executed triple tongues, which I think is a swell ornament. The tone is nice though, when all my positionings are right.

I think Kevin Crawford uses a tight embouchure but still triple tongues as a fiddle treble ornament substitute. So I suspect it is possible to have the best of both worlds, but how?

Do people who play with the tight embouchure use less tonguing by choice or because its not so easy to (or both)? I'll be interested from hearing from all you guys, especially from Harry and Chris - and other exponents of the tight embouchure!

Thanks in advance!

[gcollins]

I think it's just practice, and some bit of (undocumented) genetics. I play a Rudall flute with a Wilkes headjoint--the embouchure is round and requires a more focued airstream than a more oval one--which means, I carry a tighter embouchure.

Practice has improved the tonguing quite a bit, and if the tone of my flute and embouchure can sound like Crawford on a good day, I'm sure my tonguing does not. But it's gotten a whole lot better over time.

[Harry]

Eldarion,
That particular articulation never really appealed to me in ITM flutin', but I have buddies who have agonised over it! I think the trick is in maintaining your embochure throughout the tounge movement, keeping the maintanence of it separate completely from the tounge movement.

Your embochure is made with your lips and cheeks alone so you should be able to free up the tounge, there's no reason for it to be stuck there.

All the best, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

[CraigMc]

I have a question then as far as glottal stops VS tonguing. Does Catherine McEnvoy use tonguing and glottal stops or just glottal stops? What is more common?

Can one triple Glottal stop?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CraigMc on 2002-10-05 12:36 ]</font>

[Harry]

Indeed one can, Craig.... and it's not new. A lot of piccollo players from 78 recordings used the technique (along with tonguing) as did concert flute players of that time such as Tom Morrison (in his playing of The Roscommon reel- a two part version of Ballinasloe Fair) and, maybe most impressively, William Cummins as displayed on his recording of Dwyers Hornpipe.

They seem to combine techniques and employ triplets in places that start with a 'T-ed' note follwed by rapid throat articulations (albeit sparingly in proportion to the majority of recordings from the time).

The fast and crisp tongue triplets used by KC, Brian Finnegan and others (and the way they combine them with roll fingering and use them in melody) are new... to ITM anyway.

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-05 13:47 ]</font>

[StevieJ]

On 2002-10-05 13:39, Harry wrote:
The fast and crisp tongue triplets used by KC, Brian Finnegan and others (and the way they combine them with roll fingering and use them in melody) are new... to ITM anyway.

Among whistle players, Packie Manus Byrne from the Ardara area of Co. Donegal was doing exceedingly crisp tongued trebles and melodic triplets prolifically in the 1960s (have a recording from the early 60s) and probably a couple of decades before that. And what about Josie McDermott? It's interesting to note that both these men also played saxophone.

[Eldarion]

On 2002-10-05 13:39, Harry wrote:
The fast and crisp tongue triplets used by KC, Brian Finnegan and others (and the way they combine them with roll fingering and use them in melody) are new... to ITM anyway.

Right, so they simply use tongue triplets to articulate each of the 3 sounds in a roll? I hear about this from time to time, but I have no idea how that works at all..

Craig, from Bil's flute geezer sound files, I gather that Catherine McEvoy prefers the effect of glottals and doesn't use tonguing when she plays the flute (she says something like that in the file "052 McEvoy NY12").

Incidentally, she kind of triple glottals in her CD on track 4 when she could have triple tongued, so I gather she isn't much of a tongue user.

[Harry]

On 2002-10-05 20:24, StevieJ wrote:

Among whistle players, Packie Manus Byrne from the Ardara area of Co. Donegal was doing exceedingly crisp tongued trebles and melodic triplets prolifically in the 1960s (have a recording from the early 60s) and probably a couple of decades before that. And what about Josie McDermott? It's interesting to note that both these men also played saxophone.

.........

Yep, I should have stated new to ITM FLUTE playing..... Micho Russell also employed some tongue things as did Willie Clancy on some of his whistle tunes, John Kennedy from Antrim and I'm sure many other whistlers.

There was an earlier exponant who employed staccato triplets on whistle who made 78's, he was odd in that he had a full band behind him ( when at the time the whistle was'nt recorded much and did'nt seem to be in demand), he was also a Sax player (in New York?)...... I'll root through my re-release collection for the name if nobody comes up with it first.

Mc Dermott stated that he learned the stacatto triplets to cover as rolls on the top hand which he had trouble with when he was learning the whistle.

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-05 22:14 ]</font>

[jim_mc]

On 2002-10-05 08:10, Eldarion wrote:

I find that when I play with a relatively tight embouchure to get a reedy tone, my tongue is somewhere behind the back of my lower teeth. I find it kind of aids the airstream to be more forcefully/sharply expelled. Is this a "bad"/disadvantageous habbit? I find that my tongue will be less flexible then and I can't do cleanly executed triple tongues, which I think is a swell ornament. The tone is nice though, when all my positionings are right.

When playing the fife, you pretty much have to have the tight embouchure and highly focussed and pressured airstream in order to hit the 3rd octave notes. American style fifing is done with lots and lots of tonguing - single, double and triple. When you first learn to tongue notes, your teacher will tell you to say the word "tut". The air comes out when the sound of the letter u is formed. Make that sound (without your flute) now and see where your tongue is when you make the u sound. The tip is right behind your bottom teeth, right? Triple tonguing is done by making the sound tuk-kut-tuk-kut. If you make this sound slowly you'll see that it's actually a combination of tongue and glottal stops. The t's are tongue stops and the k's are glottal.

Throughout the whole thing, though, the u sounds are made exactly in the way you described. I'm not sure how the flute players people have mentioned articulate their triple tongues. I guess I never considered there was another way besides the one my fife teacher showed me. The tongue position you described seems pretty neutral and natural to me, though.

[peeplj]

In the world of classical flute playing, double and triple tounging is very common, but I do want to point out that while common ways of describing the syllables are "ta-ka," "ta-ka-ta," "doo-goo," and "da-guh-da," the backstroke of the tongue isn't the same thing as a glottal stop, which doesn't come from the tongue at all and is made deeper in the throat by closing the back of the throat for a split-second, like a cough.

In double and triple tongueing, there is no break in the flow of the air. A glottal stops the airflow completely.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com