Headjoint Rotation Revelation

[jim stone]

An interesting hypothesis, but I wonder if the Cameron flute
needs this to be in tune?

[Nanohedron]

An interesting hypothesis, but I wonder if the Cameron flute
needs this to be in tune?

I would say that in my experience the first result of HJ position would be the effect on general pitch, overall tone and ease of play. How one plays it into tune would be affected by the headjoint position, I expect, but my personal suspicion is that one doesn't need to do one thing or another to make it all sound more right. One just makes adustments according to what a position requires of one. A position that's ideal for me would not necessarily work as well for others.

[Dana]

Also, hand position directly effects how far the headjoint is "rolled in". So even though the headjoint is rotated inwardly compared to the body of the flute, a hand position similar to Rockstro, with the toneholes rotated slightly away from the body can offset the "rolled in" angle of the headjoint.

'Hope this is as clear as mud!

Dana

[Jon C.]

Also, hand position directly effects how far the headjoint is "rolled in". So even though the headjoint is rotated inwardly compared to the body of the flute, a hand position similar to Rockstro, with the toneholes rotated slightly away from the body can offset the "rolled in" angle of the headjoint.

'Hope this is as clear as mud!

Dana

Ummmm.... Well, I think the effect would more be from blowing more toward the center of the emb hole, instead of across it, then the relationship to the tone holes. Does that make sense? I imagine that if yu were rolling the head in and then tilting it out, that it would cancel the effect.
I have better tuning on the R&R flutes by blowing more into the emb hole then across it, but this can be done without rotating the head.

[yillbrillem]

There definately seems to be the perfect rolled in/ rolled out spot for some headjoints, but I'm not sure if it's my own trying to hit the ol' (or new) A440. Myself I enjoy using the wrist bend in to flatten. The wrist bendy thingy in... and the emb thingy back, plus the finger bendy thingy down... Gee, that note's in there somewhere, oops went too far...

[talasiga]

.....Ummmm.... Well, I think the effect would more be from blowing more toward the center of the emb hole, instead of across it, then the relationship to the tone holes. Does that make sense? I imagine that if yu were rolling the head in and then tilting it out, that it would cancel the effect.
I have better tuning on the R&R flutes by blowing more into the emb hole then across it, but this can be done without rotating the head.

I don't believe its possible to be prescriptive in a universal way because of the differences in the flutes and the concomittance of those differences that evince certain characteristics.

I am not a tech head by any means. I do think the issues pretty much boil down to

intuitively driven and tried adjustments in flute technique to obtain the natural (just) intonation of perfect consonance that traditional musics thirst for, as far as is possible on an instrument that is equally tempered.

Given that just intonation is one tonic focussed, it means that the consonance of relations that you may achieve on your Irish flute for G and its 5th, D, and its 4th, C with one angle will/may need to be altered for a similar maximisation towards just intonation for another tonic.

I believe, good flautists (including amateurs who are good and folk flautists who are well seasoned) will automatically adjust their playing angle etc to achieve consonance driven by audition.

[yillbrillem]

Yup, what talasiga said ... once you bond with a particular flute, microscopic adjustments are constantly intuitively (and sometimes unconsciously) being monitored or compensated for. Like riding a particular bicycle. Ain't it fun?

Keep your balance.

[Jon C.]

Yup, what talasiga said ... once you bond with a particular flute, microscopic adjustments are constantly intuitively (and sometimes unconsciously) being monitored or compensated for. Like riding a particular bicycle. Ain't it fun?

Keep your balance.

I would go with the intuition too, although the classicly trained flutist, may call it something other then intuition, maybe motor muscular memory, or some such...
It is interesting to play several antique flutes, on a rotation. Each flute has a different personality, even when they are made from the same maker. Right now I have three William Hall flutes I am working on, and playing. These tend to be more like small holed Rudalls.
I guess the ultimate intuition would be "Shut up and play!"

[Cathy Wilde]

An interesting hypothesis, but I wonder if the Cameron flute
needs this to be in tune?

I would say that in my experience the first result of HJ position would be the effect on general pitch, overall tone and ease of play. How one plays it into tune would be affected by the headjoint position, I expect, but my personal suspicion is that one doesn't need to do one thing or another to make it all sound more right. One just makes adustments according to what a position requires of one. A position that's ideal for me would not necessarily work as well for others.

[Cathy Wilde]

Also, hand position directly effects how far the headjoint is "rolled in". So even though the headjoint is rotated inwardly compared to the body of the flute, a hand position similar to Rockstro, with the toneholes rotated slightly away from the body can offset the "rolled in" angle of the headjoint.

'Hope this is as clear as mud!

Dana

[Cathy Wilde]

Yup, what talasiga said ... once you bond with a particular flute, microscopic adjustments are constantly intuitively (and sometimes unconsciously) being monitored or compensated for. Like riding a particular bicycle. Ain't it fun?

Keep your balance.

I would go with the intuition too, although the classicly trained flutist, may call it something other then intuition, maybe motor muscular memory, or some such...
It is interesting to play several antique flutes, on a rotation. Each flute has a different personality, even when they are made from the same maker. Right now I have three William Hall flutes I am working on, and playing. These tend to be more like small holed Rudalls.
I guess the ultimate intuition would be "Shut up and play!"

BUT ... I don't think it has anything to do with classical training; it just has to do with training, period. (Ideally good smart training, but training nonetheless) You play long enough, you get to know your instrument (the flute in general as well as an individual instrument's quirks), your ear learns to "tell" where things are off, you make the necessary adjustments, and then if you do it enough it becomes unconscious.

Let's not forget these WERE the classical flutes of a century + ago. People played Beethoven and Mozart and Handel and Elgar on them then just as they do on Boehm system flutes now. What's more, today's classical players still use many of the same exercises and techniques (Quantz, Bach, Telemann, etc.) as they did then. Granted, classical players today are working with more "(modern) in-tune" instruments, so some of the issues are to a lesser degree than they were in, say, Theobald Boehm's day, but it's always tone, intonation, and technique, no matter what you're playing or in what style.

Or what the age of your flute is.

{What I find interesting is that violins HAVEN'T changed for yonks. Few have felt the need. But flutes? .... talk about radical stuff!}

[Doug_Tipple]

Yup, what talasiga said ... once you bond with a particular flute, microscopic adjustments are constantly intuitively (and sometimes unconsciously) being monitored or compensated for. Like riding a particular bicycle. Ain't it fun?

Keep your balance.

I would go with the intuition too, although the classicly trained flutist, may call it something other then intuition, maybe motor muscular memory, or some such...
It is interesting to play several antique flutes, on a rotation. Each flute has a different personality, even when they are made from the same maker. Right now I have three William Hall flutes I am working on, and playing. These tend to be more like small holed Rudalls.
I guess the ultimate intuition would be "Shut up and play!"

BUT ... I don't think it has anything to do with classical training; it just has to do with training, period. (Ideally good smart training, but training nonetheless) You play long enough, you get to know your instrument (the flute in general as well as an individual instrument's quirks), your ear learns to "tell" where things are off, you make the necessary adjustments, and then if you do it enough it becomes unconscious.

Let's not forget these WERE the classical flutes of a century + ago. People played Beethoven and Mozart and Handel and Elgar on them then just as they do on Boehm system flutes now. What's more, today's classical players still use many of the same exercises and techniques (Quantz, Bach, Telemann, etc.) as they did then. Granted, classical players today are working with more "(modern) in-tune" instruments, so some of the issues are to a lesser degree than they were in, say, Theobald Boehm's day, but it's always tone, intonation, and technique, no matter what you're playing or in what style.

Or what the age of your flute is.

{What I find interesting is that violins HAVEN'T changed for yonks. Few have felt the need. But flutes? .... talk about radical stuff!}

I agree that a good musician, hearing the correct pitch in his/her mind, will tend to adjust the pitch accordingly, if needed. In this sense, playing an in-pitch note on the flute is somewhat like playing an in-pitch note on the violin, where, without frets, you have to hear the note in order to play it. However, playing in-tune notes on the flute is not easy to do, even for the professional concert musician. To generalize, it seems to me that smaller adjustments in pitch would be easier to make than larger adjustments, where a corrections of 20-30 cents may be required. I am also guessing that it would be easier to adjust the pitch as you are playing slowly, with it becoming more difficult as the tempo becomes faster. It follows from the above that flutes that require the least adjustment in pitch would therefore be easier to play in-tune. Please, correct me if I am wrong about this.

In the classic book “Music, Sound, and Sensation”, Fritz Winckel, referring to musicians in the orchestra, wrote, “Although completely pure intonation is most difficult on the flute, it is also of least importance, for the (flute) tone is poor in overtone content, and a slight distuning can have a positive equalizing effect.” In other words it may be a good thing to be slightly off-pitch. Not too much, though.

[Jack Bradshaw]

"To generalize, it seems to me that smaller adjustments in pitch would be easier to make than larger adjustments, where a corrections of 20-30 cents may be required. I am also guessing that it would be easier to adjust the pitch as you are playing slowly, with it becoming more difficult as the tempo becomes faster. It follows from the above that flutes that require the least adjustment in pitch would therefore be easier to play in-tune. Please, correct me if I am wrong about this."

You're right about this.....but you should add that you need small holes, or extra keys, or sliding fingers (bansuri) to hit all the consonants neccessary......

Now the good news.....as you play faster it becomes harder to do ...but even harder for a listener to hear! (Fiddlers love to play fast for this reason !)

[yillbrillem]

I've been using a harmonium to set a drone by manually relieving the springs to the keys for whatever mode I'm playing in, and then pumping with my foot, (sort of uilleann pipes style, but I’m not locked into just a D drone). The harmonium is about 15 cents flat, but having that constant "home base" or... I think of it literally as the musical ground I'm walking on at the moment, I can easily do the lip, breath, wrist adjustments, as long as I'm allowed to bend in and out of notes. Some jazz musicians like the late violinist Stephane Grappelli have made this a signatue part of thier style.

I’m actually amazed at the tuning adjustments my ear and hand can make when provided that constant drone. That much said, there’s nothing like a flute that’s well in tune.

[Jack Bradshaw]

Funny about that....for the first time, there was a shruti box at the session tonight...used as a drone......neat!