Headjoint Rotation Revelation

[jim stone]

Well, then, I'll go out on a limb. The Grinter I've played,
in my hands, is the most in tune simple system flute
I've ever played.

The Olwell Pratten is considerably less in tune, IMO.
I suspect this may have to do with the larger bore.
But this is something I don't much notice or care about.
Compensations are unconscious. By the way,
it isn't merely lipping up, as I'm sure you are aware.
A bit of rolling in and out. Also, finally, just
plain hearing the flute in tune.

Close enough for folk music!

[Cathy Wilde]

Well, then, I'll go out on a limb. The Grinter I've played,
in my hands, is the most in tune simple system flute
I've ever played.

The Olwell Pratten is considerably less in tune, IMO.
I suspect this may have to do with the larger bore.
But this is something I don't much notice or care about.
Compensations are unconscious. By the way,
it isn't merely lipping up, as I'm sure you are aware.
A bit of rolling in and out. Also, finally, just
plain hearing the flute in tune.

Close enough for folk music!

When I bought my Olwell Pratten D from Josh, I think I recall him mentioning that one of the designs Patrick uses has one or two or several "out-of-tune" notes (specifically a flat bottom D?) because that was accurate to the flutes he measured. I don't really notice it much, but like you said, I compensate unconsciously. So I guess it's back to the question of faithful reproduction vs. modern improvement ... but as you say, it's good enough for folk music, and it was certainly good enough for the flute players of the day (although I suspect the great ones had "player-based adjustment" down to an art)!

But as my flute hero has so often stated, it's about "sunlight and shade" .... which is part of what gives these instruments such great and lovely character.

[jim stone]

Sunlight and shade....nicely said.

[Tjones]

Wasn’t it Boehm’s intention to build an instrument that was not only louder, but also built following the trend of equal temperment. With the rise of popularity of the piano in the mid 1800’s, and it’s need to be tuned to equal temperment, the older instruments were no longer of the same tuning. Hotteterre build his flute using a key for Eb and a key for D#, he believed that there is a difference. So in building a flute from a different era to fit into a modern world, wouldn’t it have to be a compromise. If you what the sound and feel of the older flutes how much do you give up to play at modern pitch and tuning?

Sunlight and shade.

[Cathy Wilde]

Yeah, what Tjones said!

(though Tjones said it much more succinctly )

[Jon C.]

Wasn’t it Boehm’s intention to build an instrument that was not only louder, but also built following the trend of equal temperment. With the rise of popularity of the piano in the mid 1800’s, and it’s need to be tuned to equal temperment, the older instruments were no longer of the same tuning. Hotteterre build his flute using a key for Eb and a key for D#, he believed that there is a difference. So in building a flute from a different era to fit into a modern world, wouldn’t it have to be a compromise. If you what the sound and feel of the older flutes how much do you give up to play at modern pitch and tuning?

Sunlight and shade.

I think that Boehm also ended up with a very boring toned instrument...
It is possible to bring the conical flute closer in tune with 440 tuning. Most of the old flutes were tuned to play at a lower pitch. That is why there was the flat foot syndrome. I have a flute made by Blackman/ London that plays best at 430 htz. If I was to shorten the lower section about 5-6mm at the socket, and shorten the foot 6-7 mm at that socket and shorten the end of the foot it would bring the flute closer in tune with 440 htz. Terry Mcgee has adjusted his flutes to play in 440, I believe, as probably some of the other makers. There is still the issue of the F# being a little flat, but that can be adjusted by moving the tone hole up the flute, as was done with the Pratten Perfected. Also you have the issue of the flat C#, as the C nat key was meant to be used as a vent to bring it into tune. This can also be done with a additional hole for the thumb on keyless flutes.
I am a little bit of a purest, and have tryed to make close copies of the R&R, they are not in very good tuning in 440, but a lot of the Irish flute players like to push the bottom end of the flute, thus blowing it into tune. It is easy to go either way with the design, depending on what the player would like. I like the sound of the old flute tuning myself, but I seldom run into accordians (thank God!)... So my advise is chuck the tuner and have a good time!

[Jack Bradshaw]

Wasn’t it Boehm’s intention to build an instrument that was not only louder, but also built following the trend of equal temperment. With the rise of popularity of the piano in the mid 1800’s, and it’s need to be tuned to equal temperment, the older instruments were no longer of the same tuning. Hotteterre build his flute using a key for Eb and a key for D#, he believed that there is a difference. So in building a flute from a different era to fit into a modern world, wouldn’t it have to be a compromise. If you what the sound and feel of the older flutes how much do you give up to play at modern pitch and tuning?

Sunlight and shade.

Yup...absolutely....equal temperment means you're always playing out of tune by some amount.......

The old guys hated that........for any given key they wanted to be exactly in tune.....and that meant that for EACH KEY you had to be able to hit the following:(I've added the relative cents difference so you can see the difference from equal temperment, which would be in 100's)

Unison (0 cents), Second (204), Supersecond (231), Subminor Third (267), Minor Third (316), Major Third (386), Supermajor Third (435), Fourth (498), Subminor Fifth (583), Fifth (702), Minor Sixth (814), Major Sixth (884), Subminor Seventh (969), Minor Seventh (1018), Octave (1200)

It's a lot easier just to lip these on a flute w/ small holes.........

This can drive an instrument designer crasy! (and probably did...hence equal temperment).......you still have to lip to realy play in tune....but this is what's behind some of the present day tweaking (backsliding from equal temperment) because all keys are not equally popular!

[Whistlin'Dixie]

... So my advise is chuck the tuner and have a good time!

Here's the best piece of advice I've heard today.

M

[talasiga]

Wasn’t it Boehm’s intention to build an instrument that was not only louder, but also built following the trend of equal temperment. With the rise of popularity of the piano in the mid 1800’s, and it’s need to be tuned to equal temperment, the older instruments were no longer of the same tuning. Hotteterre build his flute using a key for Eb and a key for D#, he believed that there is a difference. So in building a flute from a different era to fit into a modern world, wouldn’t it have to be a compromise. If you what the sound and feel of the older flutes how much do you give up to play at modern pitch and tuning?

Sunlight and shade.

That is why when I did the experiment I only measured the D, the A and the G, (ie. the "flute's tonic", its perfect fifth and its perfect fourth).

Whether you equal temper or just intone the the perfect 5th and 4th (for the bellnote tonic) will be the same. Thats why its perfect.

Jack ..... help!

[Jack Bradshaw]

Wasn’t it Boehm’s intention to build an instrument that was not only louder, but also built following the trend of equal temperment. With the rise of popularity of the piano in the mid 1800’s, and it’s need to be tuned to equal temperment, the older instruments were no longer of the same tuning. Hotteterre build his flute using a key for Eb and a key for D#, he believed that there is a difference. So in building a flute from a different era to fit into a modern world, wouldn’t it have to be a compromise. If you what the sound and feel of the older flutes how much do you give up to play at modern pitch and tuning?

Sunlight and shade.

That is why when I did the experiment I only measured the D, the A and the G, (ie. the "flute's tonic", its perfect fifth and its perfect fourth).

Whether you equal temper or just intone the the perfect 5th and 4th (for the bellnote tonic) will be the same. Thats why its perfect.

Jack ..... help!

Well they are very, very close....only 2 cents off when playing in kD or kG although if you are playing in kA the G is either 29 cents sharp or 20 cents flat depending what else is being played.......

[talasiga]

So Jack,
what did you think of my Jeff Whittier bansuri
readings, then?

[Jack Bradshaw]

So Jack,
what did you think of my Jeff Whittier bansuri
readings, then?

You'll have to give me the reference......don't remember it..hardly surprising at my age..

Anyway, Jeff builds bansuris in single keys (I think) and there is good reason ...... Indian consanants go to the 22nd degree, whereas the western only considered the 9th.....

If I remember right, in C they were:

C,Dbb,Db,??,D,Ebb,Eb,E,E#,F,??,F#,F##,G,Abb,Ab,??,A,Bbb,Bb,B,B#....more or less.....I think these are from Tagore......I can probably dig out or calculate in cents if you want...I really should write a program for this stufff.....do you have names for the missing ??

[Jack Bradshaw]

(back at the shop..trying to stay on break....)

ya.....it was Rajah Sourindro Mohun Tagore, "Musical Scales of the Hindus", Calcutta, 1884.......I think he had 304 scales.....in any event, from these the above consonants were "inferred" by A. J. Ellis (1885) into a chromatic scale....he lists two tables of cents apparently derived from instruments (reasonably similar)..........I could try and calculate them directly (means writing a program though...)

Anyway, nobody realy uses even temperment (esp. not pianos)

Consonance (as opposed to dissonance) is an example of rational number theory, closely related to prime number theory and has about as much chance of coming up w/ a perfect temperment as a prime number formula.....don't expect it anytime soon....

Oh ya got to look up the Bansuris next break.....

[daveogden]

Getting back to Nano's headjoint rotation observations, I remember looking at Chris Norman's flute at his Boxwood camp the year I was there. His embouchure is rolled WAY in towards himself, so that the top edge of the embouchure hole is at least 1/8" below the edge of the finger holes, maybe more. He was playing his Rod Cameron copy of his early small hole boxwood Rudall 8 key. Certainly he's in tune on his recordings with the boxwood Rudall. I didn't get a chance to ask Chris why he set his embouchure where it was. I assumed it was part of how he got his massive tone. But maybe it was for intonation. I just tried rolling the head way in on my small hole 1850's Wallis 8 key and it did improve the intonation quite a bit, bringing the B and A down much closer to being in tune with the rest of the flute. Hmmm, very cool. I wonder if Nano's uncovered a forgotten secret to getting a small hole 19th C flute to play in tune.

[Jon C.]

Getting back to Nano's headjoint rotation observations, I remember looking at Chris Norman's flute at his Boxwood camp the year I was there. His embouchure is rolled WAY in towards himself, so that the top edge of the embouchure hole is at least 1/8" below the edge of the finger holes, maybe more. He was playing his Rod Cameron copy of his early small hole boxwood Rudall 8 key. Certainly he's in tune on his recordings with the boxwood Rudall. I didn't get a chance to ask Chris why he set his embouchure where it was. I assumed it was part of how he got his massive tone. But maybe it was for intonation. I just tried rolling the head way in on my small hole 1850's Wallis 8 key and it did improve the intonation quite a bit, bringing the B and A down much closer to being in tune with the rest of the flute. Hmmm, very cool. I wonder if Nano's uncovered a forgotten secret to getting a small hole 19th C flute to play in tune.

Andrew told me once, that Chris Wilkes plays the same way, with the Emb. hole rolled in.