Fugitive embouchure

[Bart Wijnen]

For the person who started this thread, it sounds as if one of your problems may be that you are not playing with sufficiently strong breath support. Perhaps some practice taking deep breaths (belly breathing) then playing long tones, while focusing on moving your breath from the lower abdominal area, rather than the chest, may help.
Loren

I heartly agree, it was the first thing that came up my mind when reading the origional thread, also because I remember this from my childhood.

When the belly breathing was stable, there wasn't a real problem with tone anymore. Yes, on a cold winterday, with my lips looking like the Grand Canyon...... but still I had a tone.

There's one kind of confidence I like to give to my students: when you have heard yourselve playing just one good tone one your flute, you know there's basically no problem with your instrument and you know you will manage, not everytime, but you will.

To repeat Marcel Moyse's phrase again: "it's a matter of time, patience and intelligent work".

Adults lack patience now and then.

[Loren]

For the person who started this thread, it sounds as if one of your problems may be that you are playing with sufficiently strong breath support. Perhaps some practice taking deep breaths (belly breathing) then playing long tones, while focusing on moving your breath from the lower abdominal area, rather than the chest, may help.
Loren

If you forgot to put in the word 'not' before 'playing' I heartly agree, it was the first thing that came up my mind when reading the origional thread, also because I remember this from my childhood.

Yes, you are correct, I meant that the poster perhaps was not using proper breath support. I'll go back and edit my post, thanks for pointing that out.


Loren

[Doc Jones]

There's entirely too much talk here and elsewhere along the lines of "this flute model/embouchure hole is louder than that one, or easier to play/harder to fill, or whatever." That's all a bunch of crap, really, to anyone but the most elite players who can appreciate and take advantage of the differences between flutes.

I'd agree with this if your point is that the the human element is 80% of the equation. I'd also agree that the brilliant players could probably get good tone out of an old gym sock. But I think to suggest there is no difference between flute models and/or embouchures is as simplistic as saying the flute is everything.

I think it's a good idea after you've played for a year or three, to explore flute models a little and find a flute that really suits your musical inclinations before embarking on the 6 or so years of monogamy required for true accomplishment. I have no doubt that Grey Larsen's and Chris Norman's musical stlyes and "sound" have been dramatically impacted by the flutes they chose to bond with. Certainly the same could be said of Hammy Hamilton and Seamus Egan. Would Hammy be Hammy on a small-holed Firth and Pond? Would Grey be Grey on a Pratten? You'll have no argument from me that either would sound great on either, but I have no doubt that in a side by side comparison you could easily tell which flute Hammy (or Grey) was playing.

John, I tip my hat to your experience and expertise and would love to live close enough to you to pick your brain and learn from you on a regular basis but I suspect, in trying to illustrate an extremely important and valid point, you may have swung the pendulum bit too far in the other direction.


Doc

[chas]

Excellent thread. I've seen some good ideas and will take them to heart. I really hadn't thought about the relaxation thing. I don't think I have a tension problem, but being conscious of it may avert a potential later problem.

[Jens_Hoppe]

I agree that some of the world's best players are concentrating on just one flute.

Make that virtually all of them, and you'll be a lot closer to the truth.

And then we have Harry, who seems to change his flute as often as the rest of us change our, em, socks...?

[Sylvester]

He picks new flutes from time to time but , but I reckon he remains loyal to his keyed murray the one with ivory touch.

[johnkerr]

There's entirely too much talk here and elsewhere along the lines of "this flute model/embouchure hole is louder than that one, or easier to play/harder to fill, or whatever." That's all a bunch of crap, really, to anyone but the most elite players who can appreciate and take advantage of the differences between flutes.

I'd agree with this if your point is that the the human element is 80% of the equation. I'd also agree that the brilliant players could probably get good tone out of an old gym sock. But I think to suggest there is no difference between flute models and/or embouchures is as simplistic as saying the flute is everything.

Well, Doc, as a flute dealer I'm sure you've seen and played a lot more different flutes than I have - or ever will, for that matter. And I know you are faced constantly with having to try to make some distinction between flutes for your customers, many of whom are probably on the beginner end of the spectrum, as a means of guiding them into purchasing one or the other of them. So I can appreciate where you're coming from, and I certainly don't begrudge you for perhaps telling them that "flute A is a louder flute than flute B" or "flute C is easier to fill than flute D". I wouldn't say that you're lying, either. What I would say is that you're engaging in "market-speak", i.e. you're having to gloss over technical nuances of different flutes that your market either can't or doesn't want to consider (but yet are what really make the distinction) while trying to actually tell your customers what's different between two flutes. I don't envy you that task!

But the point I am trying to make here is that trying to compare orchestral-variety wooden flutes (which is what we're talking about here, because even if those flutes are being made by modern artisans specifically for use by Irish traditional musicians rather than orchestral players, that's still what they are) on the basis of their relative loudness makes absolutely no sense. All of these instruments are designed so that they can be played and heard in ensembles of other instruments (orchestras, or for that matter, sessions) unamplified. If you want an instrument designed for loudness, i.e. the ability to be heard over great distances while probably causing permanent hearing damage to the player, you want a fife rather than a flute. So, from a standpoint of loudness, all wooden orchestral-style flutes (provided of course that they are good flutes rather than chair legs) are equivalently equal to the task for which they are designed, i.e. acoustic ensemble playing. What someone who says "I need a louder flute" is really saying is "I can't hear myself when I play in a session". There can be many reasons why a flute player can't hear him/herself in a session (crowded noisy room, seated next to a loud piper or accordion player, unfocused tone on the part of the flute player, etc), but the specific flute they are playing is never the culprit. In order to hear one's self in a crowd of other players playing exactly the same notes all the time (which is what Irish sessions are), a flute player needs to have a very focused tone. (And sometimes even that's not enough, which is why the traditional remedy for not being able to hear yourself in a session is to play sharp.) A focused tone takes a good deal of time to develop on any flute, Rudall or Pratten or whatever. In the interim, it is easier to play a loud but unfocused tone on a Pratten than on a Rudall, which is why many people say Prattens are louder flutes than Rudalls. But they're not. They are just flutes that are easier to play loudly. On loudness as a property of the flute, then, there is no difference. The differences between the flutes lie elsewhere, on other properties.

This may all seem like semantics, but to relate it back to the topic of switching flutes early on in a player's development vs sticking with one instrument, along with your added consideration of "finding the flute that's right for the sound you want", look at it this way. Most of the flute players coming to you for flutes are like teenage drivers coming to a car dealer looking for a car to learn on and provide transportation for a few years, until they get out of college, land a high-paying job and can purchase the ride of their dreams. The dealer has two cars, one with standard transmission and one with automatic. The standard transmission obviously has a bit steeper learning curve, but otherwise they're equal. If the customer comes in saying "I need a car to get me to college and back home as fast as possible, and by the way my dad's a state trooper so I don't have to worry about speeding tickets. Which is faster, standard or automatic transmission on the Geo?", the dealer's answer is not gonna be "standard" or "automatic", it's gonna be "Mister, you shouldn't be buying that Geo." But if the customer comes in saying "I need a car for the drag race tomorrow - standard or automatic transmission?" then there is an answer that makes sense. But is there an answer to "Which is faster, standard or automatic?" Of course not, it all depends on a lot of other factors. Get a good car and drive it, unless there's some particular aspect of your driving where you can really take advantage of one type of transmission over the other. The same goes with flutes. Find a good flute and stick with it while you learn to play. Once you are at a level where there is some quality or difference in another type of flute that you can exploit in your playing, then maybe you might want to try out one of that type of flute. (And as I've said, loudness and the like are not qualities that are different between flutes that a good player would be able to exploit.) So, Doc, while I'm certainly not criticizing you or any other flute seller for trying to communicate with your customers in the terms that they seem to understand and are comfortable with (even though they may be bogus ), if it doesn't jeopardize your sale you might instead just try to steer them to the best flute they can get from you for their money, no matter what type it is. Don't say "This one is easier to play than that one, even though that one may be a better flute". Instead say "This flute is much better than that one. Might have a bit steeper learning curve, but nothing that a bit of time and practice won't overcome. You won't sound any worse now on it than you will on the other one, and in the long run you'll sound a lot better. Now, cash or charge?" Of course, you're a flute dealer and I'm not, so take that advice with a grain of salt. (In other words, if you do what I say and go broke, don't be blamin' me!)

[cocusflute]

Do people who post the most play the most?
Is there an inverse relationship between playing and posting?
Time spent on the one thing rather than the other?

[crookedtune]

Do people who post the most play the most?
Is there an inverse relationship between playing and posting?
Time spent on the one thing rather than the other?

I doubt it. Most likely, frequency of posting has more to do with level of available time during the standard work day. Most post more frequently when time allows, and get scarce when life takes over. No?

[johnkerr]

Do people who post the most play the most?
Is there an inverse relationship between playing and posting?
Time spent on the one thing rather than the other?

For me, there is an inverse relationship between the time I spend reading and posting on C&F and other sites and the time I spend being productive at work. But please don't tell my boss, although I suspect the corporation already knows because they no doubt have keystroke monitoring software installed on every computer on site. The thing that perhaps has saved me from detection so far is probably that the poor soul they have hired and tasked with the job of monitoring all those keystrokes is more busy tracking down non-flute related internet activity. (And I'm always very careful not to post on the Flute Pron threads. )

When not on the job, I spend little if any time reading C&F, let alone posting here. Once I have managed to slip the surly bonds of the day job, I fully expect that you lot will never hear from me again. However, I might then have a shot at becoming at least a half-decent flute player, if I'm not too old and senile at that point anyway.

[Doug_Tipple]

When not on the job, I spend little if any time reading C&F, let alone posting here. Once I have managed to slip the surly bonds of the day job, I fully expect that you lot will never hear from me again. However, I might then have a shot at becoming at least a half-decent flute player, if I'm not too old and senile at that point anyway.

John, I appreciate all that you write about flutes, however, your above comments bother me somewhat. You make it sound as if your only reason for participating in discussions at C & F is to fill time in a job that allows your that luxury. I hope I am misreading what you have said. In my mind, participation in an online forum, such as Chiff & Fipple, has many other social benefits that you might miss if you merely went home and practiced the flute every day.

[johnkerr]

John, I appreciate all that you write about flutes, however, your above comments bother me somewhat. You make it sound as if your only reason for participating in discussions at C & F is to fill time in a job that allows your that luxury. I hope I am misreading what you have said. In my mind, participation in an online forum, such as Chiff & Fipple, has many other social benefits that you might miss if you merely went home and practiced the flute every day.

No, Doug, I think you read it right. Not to dis C&F and the folks here, but I do try to have a life outside of flute playing. And I'm a very slow two-finger typist. Despite that, it's easy enough to read and post to C&F while I'm at work because I find myself sitting in front of a computer all day here, and what else am I going to do - work? I fully expect though that if I'm not sitting in front of a computer all day for work, I won't be sitting in front of a computer all that much. (I don't now when I'm at home.) And when I do, I'm sure other computer-related things will end up taking priority over C&F. Sorry if that's bad news to y'all. But the good news is it won't be happening all that soon, alas...

[BillG]

And so, let us assume, that I am a relatively new to wooden flute convert from the silver Boehm flute. I see before me a round embouchure, an oval, a squared oval, Pratton, Rudall,and whatever else. What am I to look for in the initial sound I produce up the D scale: no hiss, loud, soft, in tune, crisp, whispy, sharp, flat? And then how do I determine which embouchure cut I should "stick with" for the many coming months? Assuming, of course, that I have a flute made by a reputable maker.

This "assumption" is based on the fact that I have previous flute experience and embouchure development. All of this is hypothetical but a concern to beginning wooden flute players.

BillG

[Doc Jones]

And so, let us assume, that I am a relatively new to wooden flute convert from the silver Boehm flute. I see before me a round embouchure, an oval, a squared oval, Pratton, Rudall,and whatever else. What am I to look for in the initial sound I produce up the D scale: no hiss, loud, soft, in tune, crisp, whispy, sharp, flat? And then how do I determine which embouchure cut I should "stick with" for the many coming months? Assuming, of course, that I have a flute made by a reputable maker.

This "assumption" is based on the fact that I have previous flute experience and embouchure development. All of this is hypothetical but a concern to beginning wooden flute players.

BillG

You start an Irish flute store so that you can have tons of flutes around all the time. Then you spend a few years playing the heck out of them and narrow the field to two or three that really make your heart go fast. You play another year or so and get your embouchure in good shape then realize, with great disillusionment, that really any flute by a great maker would be just fine. It takes a long time, but at least the end results are aggravating....or maybe liberating.

Seriously, there are some subtle tonal character differences and some embouchure cuts are more challenging for the uninitiated than others. I think, in general, a beginner will have fewer "Bad embouchure" days on a rounded rectangle than a small elliptical. But, I agree with John and Loren that if we spent more time developing our own embouchures and less time fussing about which cut to get we'd be very pleased with the results we could get from any well-cut embouchure in a few years.

That said, a McGee Pratten with a rounded rectangle is noticibly louder than a Grey Larsen preferred with an elliptical. A Grey Larsen preferred with an elliptical is absolutley loud enough for any flute application if the player has any chops at all (John was absolutley right about all the greats being loud enough).

Don't get a Pratten to get a louder flute. Spend more time "in the woodshed" to get a louder flute (Assuming you have a great flute to start). Get a Pratten if you want a flute that sounds, plays and responds like a Pratten. I prefer Rudalls and GLPs. Yup, they sound different.

Doc

[crookedtune]

Which brings us full-circle to the monogamy issue. How do you know what sound suits you unless you spend your early years "messing around" with different partners? As Doc said, it's good to be able to try a few good ones. And as Loren said, it's good to finally find your soulmate and hunker down for the long-haul.
Gotta play, errr..., perform my structured practice now! Merry Christmas, all!