(D) whistles with C natural in tune?

[m31]

It's not just the intonation of C-nat but also it's tonal quality and volume that makes it standout from the rest of the scale. I found all the whistles and flutes (including keyed) I've come across have at least some mild C# and C-nat issues. Still that never stopped the great whistle players from sounding fantastic and they play the same or even inferior instruments.

High g, a, and b intonation are far more important IMHO.

[Frederik Meesters]

Right, but again, you have to specify, what in tune means to you, because serious ITM musicians typically want something other than what a perfectly in tune equal temperament instrument would provide (even if there were such a whistle), but in fairness, since tin whistles are primarily for ITM, it stands to reason the majority of them wouldn't be tuned exactly to equal temperament, which in and of itself, isn't a failing, if it's by design.

Have you played an Abell?

Why not simply half hole instead of cross fingering the Cnat if it bothers you that much.

Other than that, you're option is to special order a whistle with a thumb hole for Cnat and learn to play that.

'Out of tune' means to me: not in tune with a tuner. Are: not as in tune as the other notes. I'm calling it 'out of tune' because i don't know how to say it in an other way. That's also why i use ' '
But as i said: I'm not saying i don't want to play the Cnat 'out of tune' (i'm doing nothing else). I was just wondering that there exists any whistle which isn't 'out of tune'. So it doesn't bothers me very much.
And i was looking for opinions about that.

[Joe63251]

If you are looking for a single option that works best for multiple whistles, the best solution is to half hole the B. While not the easiest fingering, it does offer the most adjustable option and adds a lot of natural color to a melody.

But don't take my word for it... this tip was passed onto me by Mary Bergin! She commented in a master class that for a very long time she used the half hole fingering almost exclusively.

Also, to get extremely technical in an uber-music-theory-geek sort of way, not every C natural is the same (nor are any two whistles). a Cnat in G major is different than a Cnat in a minor or even e minor. My point here is that it is to a player's advantage to seek out more fingering possibilities instead of looking for a single, one-size-fits-all-whistles fingering.

Sorry, I hope that didn't come off preachy. I just remember the biggest leap my playing took was when I stopped learning tunes by memorizing the fingering and just decided to learn everything by ear. The ear knows best!

[Gunslinger]

'Out of tune' means to me: not in tune with a tuner.

Do you really test your whistles against a tuner? I mean really? What good is that for anybody when the real test should be with your ear! Every single note of a tune has to be adjusted on-the-go and you need your ear, especially if you play with other ears. It's all about adjusting all the time.

Tuner is a useful tool for building and tweaking when you need some kind of reference, but I couldn't see me fumbling around with a tuner when I'm playing an instrument.

And Loren said something about an instrument that sounds dead on in tune, but with a fine tuner not. If it sounds perfect, what's the point in testing with a tuner? It's like buying a blue car and then checking the painting with a microscope just to find an imperfection!

BR, Heikki Petäjistö

[Loren]

And Loren said something about an instrument that sounds dead on in tune, but with a fine tuner not. If it sounds perfect, what's the point in testing with a tuner?

The point I was making is that many people don't have a good enough ear to tell when an instrument is actually in-tune, particularly when they have no refefence - like a known to be in-tune instrument or an electronic tuner. So, many people will think something is in-tune, when it is not. And, tuning is not a matter of opinion (although scale/temperament choice can be), so a note is either in-tune with it's intended scale, or it is not.

My suggestion was for those who think they have a perfectly in-tune whistle, to attempt to play an entire in-tune scale using an electronic tuner for comparison. (It's better if you can turn the tuner away from you and have another person watch and record the results, so you don't "play to the tuner") The purpose being to prove that it's ear of player is just as flawed as the tuning of the whistle.





Loren

[Lee Stanford]

But eh, who needs an in-tune flat 7? To me that defeats the whole point of that note in most tunes. I mean, learn to get it in tune, but also learn to do crazy things with your C's (and F#'s for that matter).

I know what you're saying but what about G major? You need a solid, in-tune 4th.

[dfernandez77]

Here are some whistles on which I've found this fingering to produce a well-in-tune C-natural, arranged in no certain order: Overton, Sweet, Susato, O'Brien, Serpent, and Walton Mello-D.

To these I'll add Thin and Water Weasels, Reyburns, and Hudson Wind (tiny bit sharp).

[Frederik Meesters]

Do you really test your whistles against a tuner? I mean really?

Yes really. Yes i mean really.

What good is that for anybody when the real test should be with your ear! Every single note of a tune has to be adjusted on-the-go and you need your ear, especially if you play with other ears. It's all about adjusting all the time.

That has nothing to do with the whole point.

As Loren said: not so many people have a good ear. I say: make it few.
On my experience only few people have got a really good ear. If you have an ear as good as a tuner: good for you.
You think all the makers use the ears to tune their whistles?

For sure if i like to test the Cnat of all different whistles and i like to see the difference between them, even if it are only a few cents, i use a tuner. Maybe i can hear the difference with my ears. But i want to see it clear.
So in my opinion a tuner, .. are a keyboard (let's say something which should always give the perfect pitch) is the only reference which you can trust for 100% and will never make a fault.

[Cayden]

Frederik you're utterly on the wrong track. C natural will depend on the player for it's intonation and I think you'll find you rarely will want an equal tempered one. But if and when you do the way you play the C will determine whether or not you'll get one.

[Frederik Meesters]

Frederik you're utterly on the wrong track. C natural will depend on the player for it's intonation and I think you'll find you rarely will want an equal tempered one. But if and when you do the way you play the C will determine whether or not you'll get one.

Yes i know, breath pressure will 'make' the note.
But when i
1) pick up the whistle and warm it up
2) blow into all the whistles (trying to) using the same breath pressure
then i think i've got a reference to notice the next:
some whistles have a very sharp Cnat, others a sharp, ...
but no Cnat is 'in tune' or as in tune as the other notes
(this at least with the high ends, from the cheapies some other notes are not 'in tune').

Even if you blow as hard as 'possible', then you still don't get them 'in tune'

I'm not saying this is good are bad. I just wanted to share this and hearing opinions about that. And if there existed a whistle which doesn't has this.
And why we then use oxxooo as standard.

[Cayden]

You're not getting what I am saying, this is not a push button instrument like a piano or an accordeon : the player must make an effort and play the note at the pitch he requires through a combination of blowing, different fingerings, appropriate shading and maybe a bit of vibrato.

Just for the fun of it listen to the clips of three whistles Daniel posted in his Hudson review. To my ear some intonations are off and that is only due to the extend of Daniel's playing experience. With greater control these whistles would sound very different. For the same reason people in the inexpensive thread think the clip I posted of a Feadog is played on an extraordinary example of the species. It isn't, it's actually a fairly mediocre one but it's being played by someone who can actually play a bit. There are things, in other words, you have to bring to the equation yourself and how your C natural will sound and at what pitch is one of them.

[Congratulations]

this is not a push button instrument like a piano or an accordeon : the player must make an effort and play the note at the pitch he requires through a combination of blowing, different fingerings, appropriate shading and maybe a bit of vibrato.

I thought that needed to be underlined.

[TheSpoonMan]

But eh, who needs an in-tune flat 7? To me that defeats the whole point of that note in most tunes. I mean, learn to get it in tune, but also learn to do crazy things with your C's (and F#'s for that matter).

I know what you're saying but what about G major? You need a solid, in-tune 4th.

That's very true. In those tunes I usually find I can push it far enough in that it goes, though.

[dfernandez77]

Just for the fun of it listen to the clips of three whistles Daniel posted in his Hudson review. To my ear some intonations are off and that is only due to the extend of Daniel's playing experience. With greater control these whistles would sound very different.

Actually, to my ear some of the intonations are off as well. In the case of the noted clips it was due more to the way I played the whistle than to my experience. Any one of those three whistles can be blown into tune by someone with as little experience as me. Heck, even I can do it with those whistles - and usually do it reasonably well.

That said, there is kind of an average expected amount for how much airflow a note needs, depending on the octave you want and related to the note above and below. This would be the way you would play a whistle in the first 30 seconds before you tune into it's quirks - a baseline if you will. In the noted clips I consciously played at the baseline, which should indicate baseline intonation. It's not scientific, but it can be useful to both an experienced or an amateur player.

An experienced player can listen to the clips and say "Heck, that's close enough - I can blow that into tune no problem." A rank amateur hobbyist can listen to the clip and say "That's close to the intonation I'll get until I start blowing into tune intuitively - and that's good enough for me."

If you are just concerned about a C Natural, I'd say about 50% of the whistles I've tried will get you a well intoned Cnat by blowing into tune. After a bit of practice it will be intuitive. Most whistles I play are a tiny bit sharp on a Cnat fingered 0XX000 - and I back off a little without thinking about it.

However, I understand the desire to find a whistle with a well behaved Cnat. I don't play enough to deal with changing my cross fingering on a Cnat from one whistle to the next. So if it's not close at 0XX000 I'll not keep it. I passed on a Sindt for example. But that's not to say a Sindt can't be cross fingered right and blown into tune.

I'm of the same mind as Peter (as much as I understand his mind).
1. Unless the whistle is a disaster, blowing into tune becomes intuitive with practice. It will become second nature when you play a given whistle for a while (assuming you are not tone deaf).
2. A practiced whistle player can make any whistle sound better, and some can make a mediocre whistle kick booty.
3. A well behaved whistle can help an amateur gain a bit of confidence and ease, and maybe play better and practice more.

[Jim Wright]

A wee bit off the topic but I have added the Cnat thumb hole on all my whistles ... it is dead on .... and for me easier to play than any cross finger whistle I have found to date. Don't shoot the messenger!