Irish Influence on non-Irish Music

[Brian Boru]

A few years ago I heard the opinion that Handel's "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba" was lifted from an Irish tune (I don't know if it is true or not).

Recently I thought I heard Randy Bachman say that Stairway to Heaven was influenced by a composition by Carolan.

Are these above sentences true? Are there other examples of Irish influence? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Eldarion]

This documentary might be of interest to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIZAV3p9cJk

[Cathy Wilde]

A few years ago I heard the opinion that Handel's "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba" was lifted from an Irish tune (I don't know if it is true or not).

Recently I thought I heard Randy Bachman say that Stairway to Heaven was influenced by a composition by Carolan.

Are these above sentences true? Are there other examples of Irish influence? Inquiring minds want to know.

Hmmm. I've heard DeDanaan's "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba (In Galway)" -- do you think your source could have had it flopped around?

Then again, who knows? It's often one glorious cross-pollenated soup at some point, people do get around, and folk/dance music is pretty darned pervasive ...

[flutey1]

I don't know about those 2 specific examples...

some music can be intentionally influenced by / based on Irish traditional and is meant to blend that with classical ('art') music - Sean O Riada's Mise Eire, Shaun Davey's The Brendan Voyage - but I'm not sure that's exactly what you're talking about.

on the non-classical side - folk music in North America is a blend of the traditional musics of all the people that immigrated. it's not really the same as any one, but it seems that they all borrowed from each other (the banjo came into Irish music through the American influence, where it was often played by African Americans) and there are lots of examples of that.

it seems to me that the people who object most to Irish music being mixed with other non-traditional genres (classical, jazz, etc) are often the scholars, not the musicians. I don't remember who, but there was a uillean piper that learned parts of The Brendan Voyage off by ear (he couldn't read music) and thought it was great and could play it like any traditional tune in his repertory. and really, so much that we conceive of as being a traditional setting for Irish music today wasn't developed until the 20th century anyway. (or going farther back, as Irish as the jig is, originally it came from Italy; ballads were Norman; the list goes on...)

and I will stop rambling now - those are some random thoughts that came to mind anyway, not sure if they really answer the question

cheers,
Sara

[Brian Boru]

Hmmm. I've heard DeDanaan's "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba (In Galway)" -- do you think your source could have had it flopped around?

Then again, who knows? It's often one glorious cross-pollenated soup at some point, people do get around, and folk/dance music is pretty darned pervasive ...

It was on CBC and the announcer acknowledged that DeDanann was basing his tune off of Handel. But then the announcer when on the speculate about whether Handel had heard enough Irish music to do something classical with it.

[Brian Boru]

it seems to me that the people who object most to Irish music being mixed with other non-traditional genres (classical, jazz, etc) are often the scholars, not the musicians. I don't remember who, but there was a uillean piper that learned parts of The Brendan Voyage off by ear (he couldn't read music) and thought it was great and could play it like any traditional tune in his repertory. and really, so much that we conceive of as being a traditional setting for Irish music today wasn't developed until the 20th century anyway. (or going farther back, as Irish as the jig is, originally it came from Italy; ballads were Norman; the list goes on...)

and I will stop rambling now - those are some random thoughts that came to mind anyway, not sure if they really answer the question

cheers,
Sara

Sara

What I had more in mind but I don't think I explained it very well was wasn't so much a cross pollination of Irish and other genres but where someone on purpose or inadvertently lifts a tune from another source. For example Paul Simon's "American Tune" sounds surprisingly like a tune from J.S. Bach (I think it is from the St. Matthew Passion but I am not sure).

To me Stairway to Heaven sounds vaguely like O'Carolan's Dream but I can't remember if that is the song Randy Bachman meant.

[dyersituations]

Just look at old-time and bluegrass music in America. This banjo is the combo of an Irish drum and African wood neck.

-Casey

[SteveShaw]

A few years ago I heard the opinion that Handel's "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba" was lifted from an Irish tune (I don't know if it is true or not).

Hmm. The opening has a passing resemblance to Merry Blacksmith and Devil among the Tailors. Both a bit tenuous I admit. Trouble is with all these diatonic tunes is that you've only got seven notes to play with, so you are going to get an awful lot of passing resemblances thrown up. Bach to the drawing board...

And I know that Sheba isn't diatonic but you know what I mean.

[SteveShaw]

And I'll swear that McCartney lifted "Hey Jude" straight from a De Danaan track!

[flutey1]

What I had more in mind but I don't think I explained it very well was wasn't so much a cross pollination of Irish and other genres but where someone on purpose or inadvertently lifts a tune from another source. For example Paul Simon's "American Tune" sounds surprisingly like a tune from J.S. Bach (I think it is from the St. Matthew Passion but I am not sure).

To me Stairway to Heaven sounds vaguely like O'Carolan's Dream but I can't remember if that is the song Randy Bachman meant.

it's kind of a question of how much is really inadvertant, but I don't know, maybe some is. unfortunately we don't have notes from the composers saying they heard a tune they liked somewhere and adapted it, but who knows if they would have said that...

in regards to Handel, his Messiah was premiered in Dublin in 1742 so he had a connection to Ireland, but it seems unlikely that he would have heard much by way of traditional tunes. that was before the Belfast Harp Festival, Bunting's collections of harp music adapted for piano, the others that followed it, and Thomas Moore, which became parlor music for the aristocracy - the only people with whom Handel would likely have interacted.

but of course, anything is possible

Sara

[djm]

And I'll swear that McCartney lifted "Hey Jude" straight from a De Danaan track!

Ah, I see, and then McCartney released it on an album five years before De Danaan even came together. Clever! Damned clever, wot?

djm

[Brian Boru]

in regards to Handel, his Messiah was premiered in Dublin in 1742 so he had a connection to Ireland, but it seems unlikely that he would have heard much by way of traditional tunes. that was before the Belfast Harp Festival, Bunting's collections of harp music adapted for piano, the others that followed it, and Thomas Moore, which became parlor music for the aristocracy - the only people with whom Handel would likely have interacted.

Sara

Perhaps Handel heard these tunes in the pub at some time?

[Cathy Wilde]

I was thinking about this on the way into work today, and it's not out of the realm .... Smetana, Grieg, Rimsky-Korsakov, Beethoven, Elgar, Mahler, Holst ... they've all incorporated folk themes in their compositions somewhere. And those are just the few I can recall from my long-ago Music History classes ...

Once again, so much of the "old" classical music is based on dance forms to begin with -- gigues, mazurkas, hornpipes, polkas, schottisches & waltzes (apologies to Charles Schultz; I couldn't help myself), etc. -- so why not?

Would be nifty though that DeDanaan inadvertently -- or "adverdently?" -- brought a tune back "home."

[flutey1]

Perhaps Handel heard these tunes in the pub at some time?

I do hope that's not a serious question...

why would Handel have been in a pub (or one where there was any traditional music, which was associated with the poor Catholic Irish at that time)? and the Irish pub session is actually a relatively new thing, playing used to happen largely in houses.

quite a few classical composers did indeed incorporate folk themes into their music, but with many it was intentional. I think Shaun Davey used ideas to do this from the way Stravinsky incorporated Russian folk themes into his Rite of Spring. (someone correct me if that idea's crazy)

I'll have to go listen to the DeDanaan tune again, I think I've heard it, but not recently.

cheers,
Sara

[m31]

...where someone on purpose or inadvertently lifts a tune from another source. For example Paul Simon's "American Tune" sounds surprisingly like a tune from J.S. Bach (I think it is from the St. Matthew Passion but I am not sure)...

From Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tune:
Musically, the song is notable for being based on a melody line from Johann Sebastian Bach's chorale from "St. Matthew Passion," itself a reworking of an earlier secular song, "Mein Gmüth ist mir verwirret," composed by Hans Hassler.

I remember reading that Paul Simon finally admitted in interview that American Tune is based on Bach's melody...

Part of the musical (and story telling) "tradition" is plagiarism, but it was never called that until people started making gross sums of money from their tunes and when copyright law was introduced. At one time, quoting or paraphrasing someone else's melody was actually a complement, as I would expect in the case of Bach's reworking of "Mein...". In Paul Simon's case, it was plagiarism. It's how you look at it.