How Irish is Irish music?

[SteveShaw]

And I play Connaughtman's rambles ending on F# (though most of the song isn't very prevailingly phrygian, but still).

I play Connaughtman's Rambles on a G harp in second position, which in theory makes it Mixolydian mode, but I could if I wanted play it on a D harp in first position which would make it Ionian mode. I can't always pick the bones out of these things.

End it on an F#, huh? I'll have to try that tomorrow. The wife's in bed now.

[GaryKelly]

It's all Greek to me. I just play the bloody tunes.

[talasiga]

.......

Tal was insisting that only 7-note scales are used in Western European trad music:
.........

This is pure bull sh*t and part of a straw man argument technique.

I am saying that Mixolydian is a diatonic scale. I did not say gapped scales did not exist. I was describing diatonics which are 7 note scales as per the definitions. Of course there are pentatonics and so forth and these, in the ITM and related trads are referred to as gapped modes. But the subject was diatonic modes. So how you come to a conclusion that I was insisting absence of pentatonics and hexatonics is beyond me.

For someone who reckons they have me all sized up you sure have missed a hell of a lot of posts where I compare the major pentatonic song types in both celtic (meaning Irish, Scottish) and indic hill folk tunes.

[talasiga]

.......

Is Swedish traditional music "western european"? Out of curiosity, knowing only a little about Swedish music, I checked Henrik Norbeck's site, and this is the second tune I looked at:



In which all the Gs are sharp, giving a scale of 3 "tones," 3 "semi-tones," and one "tone and a half" (tonic, tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone and a half, semitone to octave).

Non-diatonic, yes?

A B C D E F G# A+
Sa Ri ga ma Pa dha Ni Sa+

Yes, thats A harmonic minor. A lovely scale that is just not a music theory idea but informs many Eastern European melodies. If I recall correctly the arabs call it hijaz (not to be confused with the name hijaz kar for another scale) and in India its the scale for Raag Kirwaani.

I don't know much about Scandinavian music but I am always excited to hear it, some pieces sound Irish Airish and others exotically eastern euro. The Vikings traded widely across Europe to Asia and perhaps this influenced their music.

When I first joined these forums I had the temerity to enquire (in this ITM forum) whether there were any remote Irish songs in this scale. Of course I was pooh poohed more or less. The Vikings are deemed to have made a significant historical and genetic contribution in Ireland but, not it seems, in their pluralism in the area of music.

A Good Day to you Bone Quint. Thank you for this interesting and harmless digression to the topic at hand. I commend the topic to you.

[SteveShaw]

I just play the bloody tunes.

I'm not even sure I do that.

[meemtp]

I don't think Junior Crehan, Johnnies Doran and Doherty, and many of the others knew too much about this either...best just to play the tunes.....

[SteveShaw]

I don't think Junior Crehan, Johnnies Doran and Doherty, and many of the others knew too much about this either...best just to play the tunes.....

Fair enough, but where's the harm into delving a little more deeply into the thing you love the most...

[Bloomfield]

.......

Tal was insisting that only 7-note scales are used in Western European trad music:
.........

This is pure bull sh*t and part of a straw man argument technique.

I am saying that Mixolydian is a diatonic scale. I did not say gapped scales did not exist. I was describing diatonics which are 7 note scales as per the definitions. ...

Yes, and you said that non-diatonic scales aren't used in Western European folk = non-7-note scales are not used in Western European Trad. Obviously I was a bit surprised by that statement myself. Glad to know you don't mean it.

... Of course there are pentatonics and so forth and these, in the ITM and related trads are referred to as gapped modes. But the subject was diatonic modes. So how you come to a conclusion that I was insisting absence of pentatonics and hexatonics is beyond me.

For someone who reckons they have me all sized up you sure have missed a hell of a lot of posts where I compare the major pentatonic song types in both celtic (meaning Irish, Scottish) and indic hill folk tunes.

And since you say that obviously you weren't talking about gapped scales, now I am curious: Could you explain what those 7-note, non-diatonic scales are, which you say are used in "eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions."

[ceadach]

Must we obsess about theory?? Useful as can be, I believe it more important to understand how the traditional musicians that preceded us thought of their music and why.

As meemtp pointed out, the musicians in past didn't concern themselves with music theory, at least not in the way we think of it now. An older Irish fiddler of my family’s acquaintance called theory “ ..a bunch of foreign sophistry..” to the hardy agreement of his peers. Yet these same fellows could discuss their music in their own terms! This resistance to seeing their music differently was not borne out of ignorance but of the persistance of culture.

I’ve followed this topic for days and feel some things need saying at this point.

Far too much has been made of repeated assertion that “Celtic” music evolved from “Gregorian” chant, which it very likely predates. Gregorian chant actually is an amalgam of previously existing liturgical traditions, Hebraic, Roman, Germanic, Greek, Arabic, and even the Celtic, that were fused together over time and reflected the usage of the growing Western church. Remember, for eons the Celtic church had it’s own unique chant and it’s own rites which were eventually banned by Rome.

The real origins of this ancient Irish music are likely lost to us, but I doubt they needed to “borrow” much from the Romans or anyone else. Frankly the idea that the "core" of Irish music is Latin is seriously offensive to me. Can not a people create purely on their own accord??

Irish music is a product of the Irish culture as it has evolved over time. Culture is learned, not genetically transmitted. IMHO, To understand a culture one must participate in it and accept it on it's terms. Learning Irish is wonderful for a host of reasons, but not a requirement. The little I've learned has been very helpful to me, even "just" playing the tunes!

[BoneQuint]

And since you say that obviously you weren't talking about gapped scales, now I am curious: Could you explain what those 7-note, non-diatonic scales are, which you say are used in "eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions."

I didn't take him to mean pentatonic or hexatonic scales (although I can see why you did, it just didn't occur to me). I took him to mean those scales with tone-and-a-half steps between consecutive notes. Like Klezmer scales. Or the Swedish tune I posted. Am I misunderstainding your question?

[SteveShaw]

The real origins of this ancient Irish music are likely lost to us, but I doubt they needed to “borrow” much from the Romans or anyone else. Frankly the idea that the "core" of Irish music is Latin is seriously offensive to me. Can not a people create purely on their own accord??

I'm no music scholar but I don't see what's so grand about the idea of a people creating a music without influence from what went before or what's going on contemporaneously. Sir George Grove, the Victorian gentleman who founded the Grove Dictionary of Music, wrote of the "golden chain" linking ancient musicians with modern ones. It's an allusion I like quite a lot. It's fun to discuss what might have influenced the evolution of ITM, for manifold influences there undoubtedly were. Beethoven was a revolutionary composer who broke many a mould (to abuse a cliché), but he always openly acknowledged his debt to the likes of Handel and even Palestrina. In one of his very last works (and the greatest of all in my view), the quartet in A minor, the central slow movement is in the old church Lydian mode, which he acknowledges to the full and wrestles with in the most sublime and transcendent way until he finds resolution. The revolutionary man looks back, paradoxically, several centuries yet comes to a very modern conclusion. So I think the answer to your last question is probably "no."

[TheSpoonMan]

Far too much has been made of repeated assertion that “Celtic” music evolved from “Gregorian” chant, which it very likely predates.

I don't think it "evolved" from Gregorian chant either, not in a completely direct way at least, but... evidence? All the evidence we have from written music at least, chant is WAY older than Irish, Scottish, etc. music- tho that's not being fair sicne likely they couldn't write their music down. Still tho, I don't think it's fair to say it "very likely" predates it either.

Gregorian chant actually is an amalgam of previously existing liturgical traditions, Hebraic, Roman, Germanic, Greek, Arabic, and even the Celtic, that were fused together over time and reflected the usage of the growing Western church. Remember, for eons the Celtic church had it’s own unique chant and it’s own rites which were eventually banned by Rome.

Yes, but if you look at what manuscripts we have of native British/Irish chant, it's all very much like Gregorian chant (as far as I know; I think the ones I looked at predated Gregory). Fact is, when the evangelists came to Northern Europe, they brought Southern music with them. When they established churches, the songs they knew were Southern. So it's only natural for the recent converts to make music like the music they hear in church.

The real origins of this ancient Irish music are likely lost to us, but I doubt they needed to “borrow” much from the Romans or anyone else. Frankly the idea that the "core" of Irish music is Latin is seriously offensive to me. Can not a people create purely on their own accord??

Of course! But the fact is, a man's not an island, and neither is... well, an island! There's definately a lot of similarities between chant and Irish music, and the Romans and the Irish didn't exactly have much intercourse before the church. They didn't "need" to borrow, but, well, why not? Cultures merging and breaking and conversing and seeing how it all plays out is one of the awesome things about humanity.

(though as a footnote I do think it's a lot more evident that later medieval amusic, which was itself in some ways (in some ways!) an extension on plainchant, influenced Irish music. Baroue music too! Whenever I play Baroque music (which sadly isn't very often, but a more classical flutish friend and I have taken to doing some random easy duets), I think "Dude, this stuff is liek gentrified Irish/Scottish music!").

[Bloomfield]

And since you say that obviously you weren't talking about gapped scales, now I am curious: Could you explain what those 7-note, non-diatonic scales are, which you say are used in "eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions."

I didn't take him to mean pentatonic or hexatonic scales (although I can see why you did, it just didn't occur to me). I took him to mean those scales with tone-and-a-half steps between consecutive notes. Like Klezmer scales. Or the Swedish tune I posted. Am I misunderstainding your question?

I think they are one and the same thing.

[TheSpoonMan]

And since you say that obviously you weren't talking about gapped scales, now I am curious: Could you explain what those 7-note, non-diatonic scales are, which you say are used in "eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions."

I didn't take him to mean pentatonic or hexatonic scales (although I can see why you did, it just didn't occur to me). I took him to mean those scales with tone-and-a-half steps between consecutive notes. Like Klezmer scales. Or the Swedish tune I posted. Am I misunderstainding your question?

I think they are one and the same thing.

With pentatonic/hexatonic scales, though, you can have steps larger than a whole step without breaking the diatonic pattern. So they keep the "diatonic" sound, but scales like the harmonic minor (or, eg, ahava rabba) don't do that, which gives them a very different sound.

[BoneQuint]

And since you say that obviously you weren't talking about gapped scales, now I am curious: Could you explain what those 7-note, non-diatonic scales are, which you say are used in "eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions."

I didn't take him to mean pentatonic or hexatonic scales (although I can see why you did, it just didn't occur to me). I took him to mean those scales with tone-and-a-half steps between consecutive notes. Like Klezmer scales. Or the Swedish tune I posted. Am I misunderstainding your question?

I think they are one and the same thing.

Eh? Not to my understanding of theory (limited as it is). Or to my ear. To be clear, I meant 7-tone scales with tone-and-a-half steps.

The reason I took a look at a few Swedish tunes is because listening to them, they sound to me like some are in "funny scales." And a quick check shows that many are. A pentatonic (or "gapped") scale doesn't sound "foreign" to me if it is a subset of a diatonic scale. The Swedish tune I posted (even though it may use a hexatonic scale) is NOT a subset of a diatonic scale. The difference is clear technically, and sounds different to me.

I have to add that I find it quite amusing that my first post was intended to bolster Bloomfield's position that western folk music does use non-diatonic scales (which Talasiga admitted it did), but now it appears I've "switched sides" and am defending Talasiga.