Individual Style

[Markus]

I'm not sure if this is of any help, but for me it was sort of an eye-opener to meet certain flute players that I appreciate style-wise. It showed me how their style is related to their personality, or at least to the side of their personality that they whos to the world.

This has provided me with a whole new task. It is to try to pay some attention on how my own personality is reflected in the way that I play. I'm not pretending to be even half-way there, but the journey is interesting nevertheless.

On the technical side of things, obviously recording and listening to yourself is a wise move.

[jim stone]

I do Soldier's Joy, girl I left behind me...but not the other
tunes you mentioned--Thanks! Also Going Down To Cairo.
Blackberry Blossom, Cherokee Shuffle. 8th of January.
Arkansas Traveller.

Also hymns like Down by the river to pray.

Other suggestions? Americana experts, help!

Jim, the list is really pretty much all-inclusive of American fiddle tunes. But when I say they work great on flute and whistle, I wasn't implying that it's "in the tradition" or that it makes sense to bring your flute to stringband sessions. All I was saying is that it's OK to think outside the box a little and see what happens. Pick your favorite musical innovator, and think about it.

Anyway some of the other tunes I play include: Bonaparte's Retreat, Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine, Bonaparte Crossing the Alps, Sugar in the Gourd, Shove That Pig's Foot a Little Further into the Fire, Evening Star Waltz, Seneca Squaredance (Waiting for the Federals), Grasshopper Sitting on a Sweet Potato Vine, Yellow Rose of Texas, Rockingham Cindy, Needlecase, Sandy Boys, Over the Waterfall, Root Hog or Die, Snouts and Ears of America, Sarah Armstrong's Tune, Cotton-Eyed Joe, Go to the Devil and Shake Yourself, Rattlesnake, Shady Grove, Cluck Old Hen, Old Joe Clark, Bill Cheatham, Ways of the World, Temperance Reel, Old Piss, Bangum, John Brown's Dream, Ora Lee, Jefferson & Liberty, Rights of Man, Granny Will Your Dog Bite........ just lots and lots.

They ALL sound great on flute and whistle, and they're a blast to play. Playing along with Bruce Molsky? I hadn't thought of that, but why not? He rocks.

Thanks. I do play some of these already and I will try to find the tunes
for the rest. I played whistle and flute for several years
with The Bates' Street Folk and Blues Band here in St. Louis,
and we did a lot of banjo and fiddle tunes (the other instruments
being banjos and fiddles), so I've had some practice
in this sort of setting. Also such tunes sure can be helpful
on the street. I guess I've been lucky--never experienced
any resistance to playing in 'string band' situations.

Also play blues, country. and some ragtime. Not to mention
rock n' roll. This can be quite a lot of fun. I played blues
for decades on the guitar and I think the whistle
is a solidly good blues instrument.

Thanks again, Jim

[johnkerr]

I think it's counterproductive to focus one's attentions on choosing a "style" when learning to play Irish trad music, especially in the early stages of learning (i.e. the first decade or so). The decision to play Irish music that sounds like Irish music is as far as one needs to go in deciding on a "style". And no, American old-time, bluegrass, jazz, country, etc, are not "styles" of Irish music, they are separate genres of music that have their own cultures and styles of playing. If you think you're playing an Irish tune in an American style, be it old-time or bluegrass or whatever, chances are what you're really playing is just plain mediocre music that will be rejected by both serious Irish musicians and serious players of whatever American style you think you're playing. If you don't care about that, then just continue along the path you've chosen. It's a free country, and there probably is even some small audience out there that will appreciate what you're doing. As they say, there's no accounting for taste.

But if you'd really like to be more than a dabbler, and your choice is to play ITM, then still the choice of a particular "style" need not be paramount. There are some players who do choose to embrace one of the regional styles, and it is possible to do that. Fiddlers seem to have much more of an opportunity for this than flute players, though. I have one fiddle-playing friend who has embraced the Donegal style very strongly, and another who has gone the Slaibh Luachra route. Both do great jobs of it, although you would really only notice it when they're playing the tunes that come from those regions. And while it's frequently not mentioned, one of the biggest aspects of any regional style is tune selection. You don't hear too many Donegal slides, do you? Likewise, almost all fiddlers sound very Sligo when - or if - they launch into one of the classic Coleman sets, like Bonnie Kate/Jenny's Chicken's, don't they? If you were a student of fiddling and you listened carefully, you could probably pick out little bits that the Donegal fiddler is playing differently than the Sligo guy, but from a "big picture" perspective the two renditions would sound very much alike.

So, I would say that rather than focusing on learning a style, focus instead on learning to play well. And how do you do this? By attaching yourself to one or more good players and learning from them. If you can make the attachment in person, and take private lessons or go to a summer school, then so much the better. You'll learn faster. But if all you can do is attach yourself to good players by way of recordings, that's okay too. It will take longer, but with perseverance you can still learn this way. If the player you choose to attach yourself to has a strong individual or regional style, you will of course pick up many aspects of that style as your own individual style develops. You may even for a while end up sounding like a clone of that player, but as you move along in your learning process (say into the second decade) you'll probably find that is less apparent, because your own personal style will emerge. Even if it is only in the nuances, it is bound to be a style that's unique to you.

I think one of the most important things you can do to improve your playing (and as a byproduct determine your own personal style) is to record yourself and listen to the recordings. I have been rather late to the party on this myself, but I have found in doing so that what I think I sound like is not at all what comes across when I listen to myself on a recording. I find that once you get past the initial pain of discovering what you really sound like, it's possible to pick out specific things that are good and bad about your playing. Initially it may be general things like "My tone is good but my rhythm sucks", but as you make further progress and move into the end of your second decade you'll be picking out things like "The rhythm on my B rolls is slightly off; need to work on that a bit" or "I really ought to shorten and vary my phrasing a bit so that the listener won't get bored on the third time through that tune". There really are hundreds of little nuances that have to come together to make the music sound Irish, and it's the slightly varied convergence of these nuances that has created the regional styles in the first place. As has been said, proximity does have a lot to do with it, which is why the styles are regional. In the modern age of easy travel and plentiful recordings, the regionality of the styles is being homogenized to a great extent, but the differences are still there. And as long as there is one player who is a strong exponent of a style and another who wants to learn from him/her, those styles won't disappear. Every player is a product of his/her influences. So in choosing to learn ITM, don't worry about choosing a style. Instead, choose good influences and learn from them. Your own style will then emerge by and by as you become a better player.

[jim stone]

And no, American old-time, bluegrass, jazz, country, etc, are not "styles" of Irish music, they are separate genres of music that have their own cultures and styles of playing.

Nobody here thinks that bluegrass, jazz, country etc
are styles of Irish music, John, as my initial post made clear.

[Jumbuk]

But as far as "style", what is it and how would you say you develop it? Have you developed it? Are you conscious of it? Don't worry about it? Don't care?

Or is this a totally crazy question for a Sunday morning?

I think a little too much is made of the "personal style" issue. It's a part of Western society, all the emphasis on self-expression, finding yourself, individuality etc.

Personally, I think the tradition is bigger than the self in playing folk music. Just do the best you can to remain faithful to the tradition, and you will do Ok. In the process, you won't be able to help develop your own style.

[KateG]

Hey jim stone & crookedtune. I think we need to start a new style: American Flu-iddle. Flutes were certainly being played in the USA throughout the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries...so how come they got left out of string bands, bluegrass etc.? I play a lot of the tunes that you listed either on flute or on Mt. Dulcimer....another traditional and uniqely American instrument, that got shut out of the game for not being loud enough. I haven't tried taking my flute to a formal old time or bluegrass jam, but we were at a private party a few weeks ago with a bunch of bluegrassers and none of them objected to either the flute or the dulcimer (helped that the host was also a dulcimer player). Did a few gospel pieces where we ended up alternating the flute and the vocal line that worked quite well.

[chas]

I play a lot of the tunes that you listed either on flute or on Mt. Dulcimer....another traditional and uniqely American instrument, that got shut out of the game for not being loud enough.

Boy, does one have to get creative with the mountain dulcimer in noisy situations. I played an open mic night in a noisy (university) bar once. They had the mic just about touching the instrument and even then, the people interested in actually hearing me went out into a hallway away from the noise. Another time I was playing outside and someone actually held the mic herself in just the right place through 15 minutes worth of playing.

I have a piezo saddle now, which has tons of volume, but doesn't pick up the bass string when I'm playing melody on it.

[Cathy Wilde]

I think it's counterproductive to focus one's attentions on choosing a "style" when learning to play Irish trad music, especially in the early stages of learning (i.e. the first decade or so). The decision to play Irish music that sounds like Irish music is as far as one needs to go in deciding on a "style". And no, American old-time, bluegrass, jazz, country, etc, are not "styles" of Irish music, they are separate genres of music that have their own cultures and styles of playing. If you think you're playing an Irish tune in an American style, be it old-time or bluegrass or whatever, chances are what you're really playing is just plain mediocre music that will be rejected by both serious Irish musicians and serious players of whatever American style you think you're playing. If you don't care about that, then just continue along the path you've chosen. It's a free country, and there probably is even some small audience out there that will appreciate what you're doing. As they say, there's no accounting for taste.

But if you'd really like to be more than a dabbler, and your choice is to play ITM, then still the choice of a particular "style" need not be paramount. There are some players who do choose to embrace one of the regional styles, and it is possible to do that. Fiddlers seem to have much more of an opportunity for this than flute players, though. I have one fiddle-playing friend who has embraced the Donegal style very strongly, and another who has gone the Slaibh Luachra route. Both do great jobs of it, although you would really only notice it when they're playing the tunes that come from those regions. And while it's frequently not mentioned, one of the biggest aspects of any regional style is tune selection. You don't hear too many Donegal slides, do you? Likewise, almost all fiddlers sound very Sligo when - or if - they launch into one of the classic Coleman sets, like Bonnie Kate/Jenny's Chicken's, don't they? If you were a student of fiddling and you listened carefully, you could probably pick out little bits that the Donegal fiddler is playing differently than the Sligo guy, but from a "big picture" perspective the two renditions would sound very much alike.

So, I would say that rather than focusing on learning a style, focus instead on learning to play well. And how do you do this? By attaching yourself to one or more good players and learning from them. If you can make the attachment in person, and take private lessons or go to a summer school, then so much the better. You'll learn faster. But if all you can do is attach yourself to good players by way of recordings, that's okay too. It will take longer, but with perseverance you can still learn this way. If the player you choose to attach yourself to has a strong individual or regional style, you will of course pick up many aspects of that style as your own individual style develops. You may even for a while end up sounding like a clone of that player, but as you move along in your learning process (say into the second decade) you'll probably find that is less apparent, because your own personal style will emerge. Even if it is only in the nuances, it is bound to be a style that's unique to you.

I think one of the most important things you can do to improve your playing (and as a byproduct determine your own personal style) is to record yourself and listen to the recordings. I have been rather late to the party on this myself, but I have found in doing so that what I think I sound like is not at all what comes across when I listen to myself on a recording. I find that once you get past the initial pain of discovering what you really sound like, it's possible to pick out specific things that are good and bad about your playing. Initially it may be general things like "My tone is good but my rhythm sucks", but as you make further progress and move into the end of your second decade you'll be picking out things like "The rhythm on my B rolls is slightly off; need to work on that a bit" or "I really ought to shorten and vary my phrasing a bit so that the listener won't get bored on the third time through that tune". There really are hundreds of little nuances that have to come together to make the music sound Irish, and it's the slightly varied convergence of these nuances that has created the regional styles in the first place. As has been said, proximity does have a lot to do with it, which is why the styles are regional. In the modern age of easy travel and plentiful recordings, the regionality of the styles is being homogenized to a great extent, but the differences are still there. And as long as there is one player who is a strong exponent of a style and another who wants to learn from him/her, those styles won't disappear. Every player is a product of his/her influences. So in choosing to learn ITM, don't worry about choosing a style. Instead, choose good influences and learn from them. Your own style will then emerge by and by as you become a better player.

It's interesting what John says, because a series of circumstances have put me right on top of the Bluegrass/Irish music fence. And for me, it's made of barbed wire, let me assure you.

Anyway, I don't know if this illustrates much, but here we go ....

I'm in love with Irish traditional music and have worked very hard at it these last few years, listening, learning, and playing my fingers off. My idea of a great time is still some nice sensible tunes with some friends who happen to be much better players than myself.

But meanwhile .... I also happen to be in a band with some VERY good Bluegrass musicians; it just sort of happened that way. And I mean these guys are good -- our banjo player played with Bill Monroe and a band called the Dillards for years, and has been nominated for several Grammys; our mandolin player's a regional champion and has backed up Sam Bush. (Honestly, I don't know why they let me play with them except for the fact that I was here first.) Anyway, here I am, trying to be a good Irish trad player and then trying to figure out how to add something to the Bluegrass mix (at this point, this means I basically work on playing things like Leather Britches as fast as I freaking can with something that sounds like a modicum of control).

So talk about style schizophrenia!

On the plus side, I'm getting to play with brilliant musicians, even though I'm still not sure how to add anything of value to what they do on the Bluegrass side. And of course, they get to ponder the same thing about Irish tunes (although they're not committed to the tradition the way me and our fiddler are -- to a dyed-in-the-wool ITM person it probably wouldn't work, but they're so technically proficient that your average listener wouldn't have a problem with their approach).

But the big question is, of course, how to marry the two things in a truly cool way? So even our band is struggling with developing a style. But meanwhile, we're going to keep playing and hopefully our style will continue evolving until it's something that really feels right.

We just played our first regional festival this weekend and were, I think, well received; even got invited back next year and booked for another regional festival by a fellow who saw us at this one. So I guess what we do is pretty interesting to some, even though we haven't figured out exactly HOW to do what we do yet ....

So I guess my bottom line (at least at this point in my personal and professional process) is that style is most definitely a process. My most revered neighbor and occasional teacher Mr. Skelton has said that you develop your style just by playing a lot and learning a tune inside and out; from there you develop your own nuances and approaches just by spending time with the tune. I know it's made a big difference for me in my Irish playing.

But so far, I can't for the life of me figure out a really cool way to fit the flute and whistle into Bluegrass.

Ah well, guess that means I just have to spend more time with the Bluegrass tunes!

P.S. (Meanwhile, what did I do last night after we got back? Fed the animals, made a cup of tea, and happily curled up with my Bb whistle and Sean Se Cheo and the Fly in the Porter among other things. Ah, now THAT felt good.)

[Loren]

But so far, I can't for the life of me figure out a really cool way to fit the flute and whistle into Bluegrass.

Are you kidding, I'd pay good money to hear someone tear through Foggy Mountain Breakdown on the flute!



Loren

[Nanohedron]

Apparently I have my own style whether I like it or not. We all do. I'd just cut my hair, and was at a local session. Someone viewing me from behind thought I was a stranger because of the hair thing, and at the same time wondered where I was because they could hear my playing (this told to me after the confusion was eventually cleared). "You mean I'm that identifiable?", I asked. "Oh, yeah. I'd know you every time," was the reply. I can't help but have misgivings about that.

It's a good bet that I can identify a number of our local flute players by just listening.

[crookedtune]

Cathy's case is interesting, but not typical. Bluegrass is a type of supercharged popular music derived from the American fiddle-tune tradition. It is not representative of the larger folk traditions that it sprang from, most of which are much more sedate and accommodating to mixed instrumentation.

[Cathy Wilde]

Cathy's case is interesting, but not typical. Bluegrass is a type of supercharged popular music derived from the American fiddle-tune tradition. It is not representative of the larger folk traditions that it sprang from, most of which are much more sedate and accommodating to mixed instrumentation.

"Supercharged" is a good word. Sheesh! Talk about a genre that's evolved quickly ... However, crookedtune, being a Kentucky resident and all I have to take some exception to your statement, even if it's just personal belief on my part ... I'm of the opinion that traditional Bluegrass is indeed at least somewhat representative of that larger folk tradition you mention. Listen to some of the "old" stuff (i.e. pre-1970's). If nothing else, you realize that it wasn't that long ago that Bluegrass was much simpler and more sedate, too! But just like some branches of 'modern Irish music', there's been an emphasis on speed and pyrotechnics and pushing the envelope on variations and arrangements. FWIW, come to down a Kentucky festival sometime and you'll see that for every Ricky Skaggs or Sam Bush knockoff band, there are about 300 good old fellas from Hyden or Lickskillet who play beautiful traditional stuff, and at tempos not much faster than Peter Horan playing a reel.

If you'd like to hear what I'm talking about, our local NPR station has a great Sunday night Bluegrass show. Check it out at http://www.wfpk.org/programs/bluegrass.html

[Cathy Wilde]

But so far, I can't for the life of me figure out a really cool way to fit the flute and whistle into Bluegrass.

Are you kidding, I'd pay good money to hear someone tear through Foggy Mountain Breakdown on the flute!



Loren

Careful what you wish for .... ... just for curiosity, how much would you pay? And how good would the version have to be?

[johnkerr]

... I'm of the opinion that traditional Bluegrass is indeed at least somewhat representative of that larger folk tradition you mention.

Well, bluegrass is a type of music that can trace its lineage back to one man, Bill Monroe. As such, it doesn't fit the definition of a traditional music in the sense that an ethnomusicologist would use the term. (And no, I'm not an ethnomusicologist myself, but I know enough of them that I can be reasonably sure I'm right in saying that.) And "folk music" is one of those amorphous terms that can mean whatever the user wants it to mean. (If anyone here was on the IRTRAD-L mailing list a decade or so ago, you no doubt recall the blowhard from Baltimore and his nonsensical rants about "music of the folk".) So "traditional bluegrass" seems to me to have about as much meaning as "Classic Coke". But then I'm not a bluegrass player.

However, I did use to listen to quite a bit of bluegrass music, about 15 years ago when one of our local NPR stations programmed it close to 24/7. Never once in all that time did I ever think "Gee, what this music really needs is some flute..." (Nor did I think "needs more cowbell", but come to think of it now, maybe it does. But I digress....) So Cathy, as to flute in bluegrass, I just have to say WHY?!?!? But as they say, whatever floats your boat.

But seriously, though, I would question your desire to pursue both ITM and bluegrass simultaneously, given the assumption that you don't consider yourself as being anywhere near a master of either. That's a recipe for disaster. Even the best musicians are wary of switching from one genre into another. True crossover artists (as opposed to jacks-of-all-trades-and-masters-of-none, aka session buzzkills in multiple award categories) are so rare as to be almost non-existent. (I can't think of one, but I'm sure someone here will, which is why I said 'almost'.) I do know of Irish musicians at the top of their game, in full-time touring and recording bands, who are closet bluegrass afficionados. Likewise, top Appalachian players like Bruce Molsky will do crossover gigs with the likes of Mick Moloney. But in all cases, they're very clear as to which is their music, and which is the music they're just dabbling in. Their music is the one they are grounded in. If you're dabbling in more than one music but grounded in none, then where are you?

So Cathy, you can of course disregard my advice, but if I was you I'd drop either the Irish music or the bluegrass. As a player, of course - you can still listen to and love whatever music you want. Or if you absolutely can't bear to quit playing bluegrass but want to play Irish flute, then take up another instrument for the bluegrass, like fiddle or banjo or guitar. Or be the bluegrass band's roadie or sound person. Then some day years from now when you find that you're truly grounded in Irish flute playing, then maybe you could get away with dabbling in bluegrass on the flute.

And for what it's worth, I'd give the same advice to a "learning" (i.e. not fully grounded) Irish player who also wanted to play classical, or rock, or jazz, or any other kind of music. If you want to play ITM, then play it, don't dilute it. And don't dilute the other music either.

And now back to your regularly-scheduled non-rant programming...

[I.D.10-t]

....That's a recipe for disaster. Even the best musicians are wary of switching from one genre into another. True crossover artists (as opposed to jacks-of-all-trades-and-masters-of-none, aka session buzzkills in multiple award categories) are so rare as to be almost non-existent...

Do you feel the same about playing different instruments in the same style?