Flute or Player: You Decide...

[Loren]

Regarding postings about musical taste, I believe it has much more to do with maturity and exposure than skill!

Regarding posting one's own clips, my experience has been that well-informed criticism is easy to spot.

I wasn't talking about musical taste, to each his/her own there.

I was speaking of people discussing and offering advice with regards to technique, phrasing, etc. I disagree with you about well informed info being simple to spot, particularly for the beginner who's likely to be looking for same. Many folks here don't even seem to be able to hear when posted tunes are being played with poor meter, and if one can't hear that, then advice on phrasing, ornamentation, etc. is highly suspect, but still, it sounds as if they know what they're saying, unless one knows better.

Okay, well, it wasn't originally my intention to go down this path, and I don't want to stray too far down the road of seemingly tearing others down, because that's not it. I do however think we have VERY few high quality players contributing here, and I can't help think it's because so few of us know when to simply listen and learn, rather than succumbing to the urge to throw in our two cents on every topic, regardless of whether we are knowledeable on the subject or not. No one really knowledgable in any field wants to waste time arguing with those who clearly have no real expertise, and simply just like to hear themselves speak. But we have an awful lot of that going on here, hence, IMO, few fine players (or makers) willing to participate here.


Loren

[Cathy Wilde]

I wasn't suggesting that we refrain from talking about music - merely that there are some reasons why people don't.

The people who do not have teachers (myself included) find a lot of value in this place. But I'd trade it for a first-rate teacher if I had the opportunity.

Well, I think it's more of the same problem though, you end up with people of a very wide variety of skill levels contributing advice, and for the most part you have no way to sort the wheat from the chaff, having never heard most of the would be advice givers play.


Loren

Ah, but Grasshopper -- that's the nature of the beast. And even if we all could hear everyone play, who's to say we'd all judge each others' playing the same way? If I had just started out on the flute and heard you play Morrison's with a few ornaments at something even close to session speed, I might think you were Mike McGoldrick.

By the same token, if you heard me play, you might think I was ... well, chud.

OK, bad analogy.

But a neat story from Mr. S. comes to mind here ... he was playing at some flute concert or festival or other in Brittany, I think, and the player who was onstage before him pulled out all the pyrotechnic stops. Inventive playing, lots of fireworks, great improvisation, brilliant without question. The crowd went wild.

So jeez, how's John supposed to follow that?

He revised his game plan, and went out and played an air as simply as he could.

Now, I'm sure there were many in the crowd who thought "Eh????? This world-class guy plays something so simple?"

But I bet there were a fair number who said "Ahhh. Nice cut there, that one cut he used on the A, perfectly placed, never thought of that."

And I bet there were a few who said "Holy ____. What a great idea to do that, what a lovely reading of that tune and good on him for helping build an even nicer overall concert than it was already. Freaking genius."

It's only my opinion, but I would venture that the last bunch were the ones who'd been hard at the music mill a very long time.

My point is, people respond to things differently not just because of personal taste, but also depending on what stage of learning/knowledge/familiarity they happen to be in.

It's so easy to want to pigeonhole things and apply standards to processes, but hey, mistakes and wrong turns are part of the journey too. If people are going to be good players, they'll do whatever it takes to become good players -- whether it's talking about it, playing for hours a day, thinking about it all the time, listening all the time, taking good advice, taking not-so-good advice, ignoring really good advice or not working on what the good players told them to try, OR, not being in a place to even hear or understand the good advice, or all of the above at some point or other. But basically, we're going to spend a fairly significant amount of time being not-so-great players; some of us more time than others -- what that time consists of will be what it will be.

But it's not hurting anything, the only thing it costs is time -- and besides. If being brilliant is all about learning from your mistakes, maybe it's a case of the more wrong turns the merrier!

(I should be a regular Einstein by now )

After all, the less I know, the more I can learn.

[treeshark]

Can you do a hybrid? And, erm, can you tweak for the kind of flute the recipient may be using if it differs from the flute make and type played by the original? i.e., though Molloy may play a Pratten Olwell, I play a Murray. Can I still get a Molloy lip with a Murray modification?

I will send you a brochure in the post...

Though there is a serious thought there, it would be also interesting for comparison to have several flute players at more or less the same level of expertise play the same flute, I suspect the resultant cut together wouldn't be anywhere near as seamless.

[Wormdiet]

I was speaking of people discussing and offering advice with regards to technique, phrasing, etc. I disagree with you about well informed info being simple to spot, particularly for the beginner who's likely to be looking for same. Many folks here don't even seem to be able to hear when posted tunes are being played with poor meter, and if one can't hear that, then advice on phrasing, ornamentation, etc. is highly suspect, but still, it sounds as if they know what they're saying, unless one knows better.

Okay, well, it wasn't originally my intention to go down this path, and I don't want to stray too far down the road of seemingly tearing others down, because that's not it. I do however think we have VERY few high quality players contributing here, and I can't help think it's because so few of us know when to simply listen and learn, rather than succumbing to the urge to throw in our two cents on every topic, regardless of whether we are knowledeable on the subject or not. No one really knowledgable in any field wants to waste time arguing with those who clearly have no real expertise, and simply just like to hear themselves speak. But we have an awful lot of that going on here, hence, IMO, few fine players (or makers) willing to participate here.


Loren

Fair enough. My clips are over at Tony's site, and they are *not* polished or very good. I received some unsolicited feedback on them and asked for some more. Both reviewers had what seemed to be informed criticism and their comments have, I believe, helped out. But that type of experience isn't necessarily the norm, so you're probably right.

Dang, I am feeling longwinded today - sorry folks. Time to leave work and actually play!

[Loren]

Cat,

I agree with you, and I firmly agree good, productive discussions can be had, but only among those who at least have an understanding and appreciation of the fundamentals. You're talking elements of style, I'm talking foundational nuts and bolts. If a player can't play in time, doesn't understand the basics of where the accents are supposed to fall within the bar for a given type of tune in a style, and so on, there can be no constructive give and take with regards to discussion on these matters.

Loren

[Cathy Wilde]

Cat,

I agree with you, and I firmly agree good, productive discussions can be had, but only among those who at least have an understanding and appreciation of the fundamentals. You're talking elements of style, I'm talking foundational nuts and bolts. If a player can't play in time, doesn't understand the basics of where the accents are supposed to fall within the bar for a given type of tune in a style, and so on, there can be no constructive give and take with regards to discussion on these matters.

Loren

I agree with that, but .... how does a player know whether he has those fundamentals or not until he learns the hard way? He's going to try to figure it out regardless, though. And the ones who don't ... well, they don't. And the ones who do get better.

[chas]

. . . The point is that while there are a number of things that can contribute to very subtle differences in tone and playability. . .

I would take issue with the subtle when it comes to playability. I've tried and tried and tried to play Pratten-type flutes and just can't play them the way that I can play Rudalls or even traversos. Maybe it's just me, I have some rather severe scarring on my upper lip, but I can play Rudalls but not Prattens.

[Jennie]

how does a player know whether he has those fundamentals or not until he learns the hard way? He's going to try to figure it out regardless, though. And the ones who don't ... well, they don't. And the ones who do get better.

And some of the ones who don't even know what fundamentals they're lacking find out here. Either from lurking and learning, or from asking what appears to be a stupid question, or from pursuing ideas from a crazy angle until someone sets them straight. I know I've been in each of those places.

Just... let... it... flow.
A community this size will always have people at very different places in their process. None of us is musically irredeemable. We're just being where we are.

Jennie

[scooter587]

When asked about different fiddles he'd played over the years, Martin Hayes once said something like (paraphrasing here) "it just takes a little longer with some fiddles to figure out how to get the sound you're after." I think the same is true of flutes--an experienced player will sooner or later get his or her sound out of any decent flute. Their personal preference will be based in part on which flute lets them do that while handcuffing them the least, given the player's individual strengths and weaknesses.

I've been playing music for 40 years, Irish fiddle for going on three decades, and wooden flute for 2.5 years. I'm no expert, but I am accustomed to listening for tonal differences. As far as the test clip goes, I believe I hear a change from one flute to another at 9 seconds in. In partricular, the second octave D has more hiss from there on out than in the first 9 seconds.

"And that's all I have to say about that."

[bepoq]

Loren's last post is dead on the money. I wish you'd let yourself go a bit further really though mate, I'm a bit sorry that you had an attack of diplomacy just as you were about to hit full flow.

I think that the problem with this experiment is that it looks at the notion of flute construction from the wrong perspective - that of the listener. (i also agree with the post discussing the quality of recording and playback quality being a little unfair). It is much more important from the perspective of the player. I've not been able to listen to the examples yet as I'm travelling and been able to download them, but what is the bloke playing and how is he trying to play it? That is, if I am going to play, say an orange march, it doesn't matter whether I pick up a small hole rudall boxwood model, or one of Hammy's largest in Mpinga, I'm probably going to try to drive the thing because that is the way I hear the music. It is going to be easier for me to drive that Hamilton, so I am likely to enjoy it more and if the music that I most often play leans in that direction, then that is the sort of flute I am likely to want. A listener, will hear a driving, percussive, fairly raw sounding march coming off either flute (though at those extremes of size the Hamilton should be a good bit louder). The difference that I find between the flutes as player is likely to be wider than that heard by even an experienced player who knows my playing, and much much wider than that heard by someone who is not as experienced and who doesn't know my playing.

Someone mentioned Desi Wilkinson earlier. Now Desi could certainly drive that Doyle Yew that he plays if he wants to, I know that he really enjoys that flute and I've heard him play marches and hard reels on it. But he doesn't generally pick it up to play his marches or his driving reels, he tends to use it for airs, slipjigs, slow reels etc because he likes the way he can push it in that direction - it suits the way he hears the music. Now I'm not totally sure that if I were to listen cold to a recording of Desi playing marches on his Murray mixed in, like in the experiment, to his Doyle Yew, that I would be able to pick out which was which and be dead sure I was right (though I hope I could), but I am damn sure that Desi knows as he plays them and that he hears and, more importantly, feels the difference as he does.

The bloke shopping and (is it a bloke?) trying out the flutes is trying to play them all the same way (the way he most likes) so as to choose which flute most suits him - that is to achieve the sound that is the way he hears the music in his mind. One of the flutes will probably allow him to get closest to that ideal music most easily. If he is any good though and is able to play the music mostly the way he hears it on the range of good instruments, is it any wonder that it is difficult for a listener to pick out the changes with no context through a (dodgy) electronic medium?


There is no doubt that the player is most important to the sound (just listen to different great players on the same flute). Likewise, there is no doubt that the flute makes a significant difference to a player's playing even if not always to the way you hear it. It is also true that any good quality instrument from a good maker (could probably name about ten makers off hand) will do for a long while for a beginner well through intermediate stage and beyond, and that at that beginner and through that intermediate stage, issues like size, decent response, basic intonation, cost, can you get one, will it be happy in the climate, etc. (that is fundamentals and logistics) are more important than buttery, complex etc. etc. because you can't control those yet and need to focus on more workaday things in your playing such as rhythm, strong tone, breathing, tunes and that sort of thing. Searching for the perfect flute may be quixotic (ala Hammy) at best. Doing it as a beginner or even an intermediate player strikes me as simply not possible - you are likely to change what you mean by perfect as you get better.[/i]

[treeshark]

there is no doubt that the flute makes a significant difference to a player's playing even if not always to the way you hear it.

Ah now there is an excellent point.

I know a lot of well meaning but probably inaccurate and over enthusiastic advice is handed out here, but being enthusiastic, though occasionaly irritating is at root a laudable thing.

And anybody who is going to move on from being a dabbler to an out and out muso will soon be able to spot the wheat from the chaff.

There's a fair bit of flute nerd in all of us I'd guess, who amongst you would not feel their heart rate rise if they saw a table of Rudalls, Olwells, Wilkes', Noys, McGees, etc waiting to be tried!

Glinjack would probably mutter "firewood" and stalk off mind you...

[GaryKelly]

I'm not at all surprised that makers aren't posting in this thread, for all they know the flute(s) on the test track may be one (or more) of theirs. Embarrassing makers isn't what this is all about, and I for one don't wish to see them pressurised into taking part.

It's a simple test. It takes longer to read the instructions and download the track than it does to actually do the test. The only thing you require is functional hearing and the strength of character to post honest answers in the full knowledge that you might be "wrong".

I say "wrong" in inverted commas because of course there are no "wrong" answers. You hear what you hear. If what you hear doesn't match the reality of the 'answers' does that invalidate your hearing? No of course not.

My webserver logs tell me the test track has been downloaded 233 times so far (up to yesterday midnight). Of the 100 or so contributions to the thread so far, 14 are 'answers'. Two of the answers to date I consider are extremely interesting.

I genuinely salute each and every one of the members here who've given honest answers. They're interesting (I'd still really like for Avery to let us know the time at which he hears that transition from 'large bore to small bore', it could be a very meaningful observation particularly given that his hearing is very likely much more sensitive in the higher frequency range than us older folk).

As for dismissing the track as a 'poor quality home recording', I'm not sure I can accept that. The human ear (in young people with normal hearing at least) can nominally hear a range of frequencies between 20 and 20Khz. Looking at the spectrum analyser (I'm allowed, Mr Bradshaw!), the dynamic range of the track is 86Hz-22KHz although there is a drop-off at 15.4KHz. Considering D7 on the piano clocks in at 2.35KHz and the low D on the flute at 294Hz, I'd say the dynamic range of the track contains all the harmonics you'd reasonably expect to hear in a live performance. I can't speak for the frequency response of your headphones or speakers though. The track is 'CD Quality', in other words it uses the same sampling rate and frequency as commercial audio CDs. The background noise would of course not be present in a studio surrounding, but it's better than kids screaming, people coughing, sneezing stamping their feet and yelling 'woof!' all over the place that you'd get at a live performance.

If we'd had 100 sets of answers to look at, think how interesting that would be. If all 100 were perfectly spot on, what conclusions could we infer? If only 2 out of the 100 were spot on, wouldn't it be interesting to try and find out why? If nothing else, if we had genuine answers for each of the 233 downloads to date, we'd have some kind of basis to support further experiment, as has been suggested (use a studio, get a bunch of players to play one flute, get a pro to play a bunch of flutes etc etc). But above all, it'd be a start, and we'd have something much more interesting to ponder than the same old anecdotes vs anecdotes and calls to believe the auld wans... (if we did that in blind faith we'd still be wrapping sweaty socks 'round our necks as a cure for the common cold, and winter in the office would be far more unpleasant than it already is).

[Flutered]

On a more serious note, I feel that this discussion desperately needs the input of

1) some of the professional players we have on the board, and
2) some of the flute makers.

Yes, we're waiting but I wouldn't advise holding your breath! The cynic in me says there is just too much cred to lose by getting involved in this and getting it wrong. And anyway after all, as someone else has pointed .. the flute makers have to balance their objectives between making good instruments to satisfy the customer for years to come and keeping their business going by having full order books.
If everyone here was to follow Loren's excellent advice of getting one good flute and sticking with it for years, one could forsee a sudden drop in sales. Which would be a pity as well, as I have great time for anyone that makes a living out of working with their hands.

[vanessa]

When this thread started I thought as a beginner it was just a bit of harmless fun and so I happily played along with it but now I've realised there is such a thing as a two camp divide which seem to ruffle quite a few feathers, so ever since I read this thread, I can't get this children's story out of my head as I'm wondering who might be a little more right than the other but I'm beginning to think that everyone is right in as much as everyone is wrong because isn't that human nature ...


The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey


A Man and his son were once going with their Donkey to market.
As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them
and said: "You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?"

So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their
way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: "See
that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides."

So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself.
But they hadn't gone far when they passed two women, one of whom
said to the other: "Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little
son trudge along."

Well, the Man didn't know what to do, but at last he took his
Boy up before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to
the town, and the passers-by began to jeer and point at them. The
Man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said:
"Aren't you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor donkey
of yoursu and your hulking son?"

The Man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They
thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied
the donkey's feet to it, and raised the pole and the donkey to
their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met
them till they came to Market Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one
of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the Boy to drop his end
of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey fell over the bridge, and
his fore-feet being tied together he was drowned...

[cocusflute]

OK, here's my answer.
I couldn't tell any difference.
I listened to the track two or three times. It all sounded like the one flute to me. Perhaps if I'd listened more often I'd be able to detect a difference.
But I'd rather play my flute.