Flute or Player: You Decide...

[Cynth]

When I played the first few notes and compared them to the last few notes (I did this a number of times), I thought the first few notes sounded fuzzier and the last few sounded clearer. I don't know if it was a different flute though. The notes in the higher register seemed to sound the same to me. Like Martin Milner, I felt if a change took place at the same time as a change in the register (hope I'm using the right word) took place I wouldn't be able to tell if it was because the register had changed or the flute had changed. I guess I feel like I might be trying to compare high notes on one flute to low notes on another. So I'm thinking that perhaps one could tell a difference between a whole tune, covering lower and higher registers, played on different flutes and yet not be able to tell a difference if the flute changed at particular points in a tune.

My short answer is that I couldn't tell a difference when I listened to the recording all the way through. I listened a number of times.

I don't play the flute and hear them seldom. I'm sure my response will be treasured !

[GaryKelly]

Part of my problem with this particular test is that I expect the high end of a flute to sound different from the low end

Ah. That's because you've had to put up with my playing on a number of occasions over the last few years and I'm crap. Sorry.

[Jack Bradshaw]

I'd be cheating if I actually tried to do this on the spectrum analyser.....

(I'll wait...I'll wait....I'll wait........)

My tin ear does seem to hear a difference between the first and last flutes....for whatever good that does...

Personal techie opinion is that it's the player (principally jet velocity and modulation) plus the "shape" of the air in the flute (alignment of excited overtones....this has material machining characteristics written all over it) plus, and this is (usually) the least relevant factor, the resonator losses from viscosity and thermal conductivity ( these almost cancel each other out for the most common flute-making materials.....and are affected by workmanship)

From spectrometer experiment w/ various "good" (read...recognized....I really should try my Pakis as well) flutes from very small holed "Rudalls to very large holed "Prattens", I've always been able to duplicate a "tone" from flute to flute embouchure adjustment and a little practice (not tunes, just holding of notes....don't I wish though...) That is to say, I've always been able to adjust the relationship of the fundemental to the 2nd harmonic w/ the 3rd a bit variable (but then we "golden agers" probably can't hear that difference anyway !)

My guess would be that a real "pro" could adjust on the fly and get "his" or "hers" sound out of most any flute....they might prefer the one one that let them do it most easily......

(the math behind it is all in the literature....see Benade's notes etc etc ...)

[Chiffed]

Would it be so bad if my flutes only sounded different to me?

About flowery language, remember that writing about music is a lot like dancing about architecture.

[Jack Bradshaw]

About flowery language, remember that writing about music is a lot like dancing about architecture.

By Jove ! I think you've got it !!!!!!!!

[Cathy Wilde]

Part of my problem with this particular test is that I expect the high end of a flute to sound different from the low end

Ah. That's because you've had to put up with my playing on a number of occasions over the last few years and I'm crap. Sorry.

No, no! Of course the low end and the high end sound different. That's not just the player; that's the way flutes and airstreams and bore sizes and shapes and all those things work.

[Martin Milner]

Like Martin Milner, I felt if a change took place at the same time as a change in the register (hope I'm using the right word) took place I wouldn't be able to tell if it was because the register had changed or the flute had changed.

Yaay! I got bold font!

Next time I'm pushing for colour!

[jsluder]

Like Martin Milner, I felt if a change took place at the same time as a change in the register (hope I'm using the right word) took place I wouldn't be able to tell if it was because the register had changed or the flute had changed.

Yaay! I got bold font!

Next time I'm pushing for colour!

You might have to settle for color.

[Denny]

Like Martin Mailner, I felt if a change took place at the same time as a change in the register (hope I'm using the right word) took place I wouldn't be able to tell if it was because the register had changed or the flute had changed.

There ya go!

ducks....

[jsluder]

Like Martin Mailner, I felt if a change took place at the same time as a change in the register (hope I'm using the right word) took place I wouldn't be able to tell if it was because the register had changed or the flute had changed.

There ya go!

ducks....

Mailner?

[Denny]

Like Martin Mailner, I felt if a change took place at the same time as a change in the register (hope I'm using the right word) took place I wouldn't be able to tell if it was because the register had changed or the flute had changed.

There ya go!

ducks....

Mailner?

Like Martin Milner,

I do need to get new glasses.

[asopp83]

You know, this is very interesting, and I totally appreciate the expirement at stake here. Although very new to the simple system world, the debate of instrument vs. the player is very relevant in my classical life. I happen to think it is a combination of the two...

I work part-time for a high-end Boehm flute dealer in nyc, and help people find "their right flute" regularly. In many ways, I think it is more about feel than the actual sound of a flute that makes a person want a specific instrument. It's completely inexplicable how it works! Personally, I just bought a new piccolo - I went to a dealer and spent hours trying out different makers piccolos...I kept trapping myself, because there were several piccolos there that were from the well-known and supposedly "best" makers - you know, the ones that every piccolo player in major symphony orchestras play on. So I felt like I should have thought that one of those was the best...but no matter how much I tried to trick myself, there was this little, old German piccolo that kept wanting me to play it. It's the chemistry, right?

That being said...I had the oppurtunity to play in a class that Emmanuel Pahud taught at my school last Spring. My entire flute studio performed for him, and he never once took out his own flute. He made it a point to take each student's flute from them at some point during their portion of the class, and did his demonstrations directly on their instruments. It was almost as if he way making a direct comment on this age old debate of instrument vs. player...and you know what? He sounded freaking fantastic on every single flute he played (granted, they were all high-end flutes by great makers)...

With young students and beginners I think the difference can be drastic. You hear someone tooting away on their cheapo band flute, and one reaches a point where a better instrument is necessary to the overall improvement of the player. If at the right point someone gets a new and better instrument, the sound opens, articulation is cleared, etc...it's magical! On the flip side, I do think that well accomplished players can make any well made flute sound great - BUT, they suffer when they play lower quality instruments almost more than someone who is used to that.

All this aside - I have no idea as to what my answers to the original post are...I simply haven't tried or hear up close enough flutes! Something I'm workin' on.

[Father Emmet]

Where are they? I've seen 'em browsing the forum and posting to other threads. Surely those who continuously propagate the belief that certain woods possess distinct 'tonal qualities' would have absolutely no difficulty with this test? Of course, if they don't want to play, we can only surmise as to the reasons why.

It may be that those that are avoiding responding are doing so for reasons other than what you think. I see that makers and many of our members with many years of experience are not responding. I'm no expert, I've only been playing about two and a half years. But then again, so have you.
I was looking through Fintan Vallely's Companion to ITM last night, and Fintan certainly thinks different styles and woods make flutes sound different. He certainly has impressive credentials in the field to back him up, and I'm inclined to take his word for it. (This view is not at odds with that of Hamilton by the way, another respected acedemic in the field). I'm sorry I don't have it here to quote. It's under 'F' for flute (the book is in encyclopedia format).
I did a search on the materials subject, and found this:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0
I like this quote:

Jesus wept! Anybody who thinks that the material is irrelevant to the sound of the flute probably doesn't play one very well. For whatever reason -- bore finish, changes in physical structure, reaction to climate -- boxwood flutes sound different than blackwood or cocus flutes.
Tapping on a turned, solid piece of cocus produces a distinctly sonorous ringing tone, unlike blackwood or boxwood. Is it foolish to think that this quality would disappear in the finished flute?
To say that the different sound of a boxwood flute is due to the minute change it undergoes in the hands of a player is precisely the reason why we claim that boxwood has a different sound than other flutes. It is obtuse and wrong-headed to say that material is irrelevant-- or that a delrin flute made by Michael Cronnoly is as good as a flute made by one of the great modern makers. What great player is happy playing a flute made from a synthetic material?

I think that this is certainly not a black and white issue. I'm unable to listen to the test at the moment, but would expect to have a hard time discerning any difference. As for myself, I get different sounds from different flutes (even if only to my ears), and as others have said, the fact that pros can get 'their' sound from any flute may be largely a matter of emulation, an ability due to refined emboucher. Some can even emulate a wooden tone on bohm flutes. While I agree with your premise from previous threads that more is to be gained from dedication and practice than searching for that elusive perfect flute, I think the issue has been pushed too far.


Oh, I almost forgot -

[Jens_Hoppe]

In a blind test (playing a Copley D, a Jon C R&R D, and an Olwell bamboo D), my wife found that overall there wasn't much difference in sound, except that the Olwell bamboo D was louder than the other two, and the Copley had a harder sound than the Jon C.

So there; a non-player could hear (at least some) subtle differences between the flutes tested. Case dismissed.


On a more serious note, I feel that this discussion desperately needs the input of

1) some of the professional players we have on the board, and
2) some of the flute makers.

[Loren]

The point is that while there are a number of things that can contribute to very subtle differences in tone and playability, nothing even comes close to the difference made by the player, and no amount of flute hopping will improve your ability to get the tone you want out of a flute anywhere near as much as more time spent with one flute, ANY good flute, working on your tone.

For me, this debate is not about trying to change the minds of those who are participating in this debate, I realize full well it's a lost cause, minds are made up. However, I am hoping that the debate itself, might impact those who may read this forum with minds not yet made up, and thousands not yet spent, nor years wasted tearing through flutes looking for the "right one"

Having been around this forum for a long time, I've seen a small number of fluteplayers here multiply into quite a few, with more showing up weekly it seems. Now it's not surprising to me that, since most of the people who show up here have migrated from the whistle forum, they tend to bring their WHOA with them - the mentality of buying and trying as many flutes as possible, that model, doesn't work for flute, because unlike a whistle, which you just pop in your mouth and play any which way, flutes require the development of an embouchure more or less specific to a particular flute, in order to get the best out of it. And, unlike whistles, where the instrument determines the vast majority of the sound, flute is totally the opposite.

However, now that we have a bunch of whistles players and their WHOA/FLOA piling up here, I believe all the talk about the differences between Rudalls and Prattens and Nicholchuds, and on and on, has gotten blown WAAAAY out of proportion, largely by people who still can't play a single tune with good tone. Unfortunately, newbies just tuning in, get bombarded with all sorts of (often erroneous) descriptions of how different types of flutes sound and play - this talk is often so over the top, so exaggerated, that before long we have yet another crop of "experts" who have been brainwashed into believing that "R&R type flutes have a sweeter second octave than Prattens", and such other hogwash.

In the meantime, there have been very few people willing to stand up and say (where are you now Chris Laughlin my friend???) "quit wasting your time, money and effort trying to find that ideal flute, that sound and response you're looking for is in you not the freakin' flute. Learn to play the damn thing worth a crap, and you'll have access to more "ideal" flutes than you can shake a stick at, because with enough hard work, you'll be able to get the sound and volume you want on nearly any good flute (extremes in design aside).

Many people here want to ignore this, or at least marginalize it to a large extent, in an effort to rationalize the money they spend, the their lack of time spent practicing, and the lack of results they get because of this. I think doing so publicly is doing a huge disservice to those beginners who come here looking for guidance. It's my opinion, that the new player is best served by being told who the good, reliable, makers are and then being encouraged to get one quality flute and stick with it for a good long time - years, not weeks or months. I don't know of any really fine instructors or players who suggest otherwise.

I wonder if maybe we could focus on the music and how to better play it, or would that be terribly boring?


Loren