Flute or Player: You Decide...

[Flutered]

Well Gary,
are you not being slightly unfair in the way you've set this up? I mean the whole track is hardly more than a few minutes long. If I was buying a new flute, which I'm not, I would be inclined to want to listen to the same flute being played over a number of tunes both dance, airs, marches etc. : the I might be able to say yes, I like this one better than that because I find it easier to get this sort of sound out ot it etc. etc.
Here you've spliced a few short seconds from perhaps 3 or 4 flutes, I don't know: there's very little time for the proponents of 'it's the flute' camp to assess any tone other than it's 'flute like'!!

[michaelS]

Being a confirmed member of the "it the player" camp, (I often can't tell which flute I played on recordings, once it is all mixed), I can hear three distinct tone colours, the middle one being "brighter" than the beginning and the end. It is worth noting that the different mic placement could have a similar effect on the tone. Also, there is a lot of background noise that could be masking some of the subtle differences.

[GaryKelly]

Well Gary,
are you not being slightly unfair in the way you've set this up?

No, I sincerely don't think so. This isn't about buying a new flute, it's a simple practical 'blind' test.

(The only reason I mentioned 'purchasing decisions' back here was that I just happened to get access to some of the recordings that the player made while evaluating a number of flutes and was struck by the fact that I couldn't tell the difference between them... obviously the player isn't basing a decision on a few seconds - I offered the information because I didn't want people to believe this was some kind of hoax or fraud, with the player deliberately adjusting embouchure or deliberately attempting to make a bunch of flutes sound the same - indeed, Avery made a point about embouchure earlier).

...there's very little time for the proponents of 'it's the flute' camp to assess any tone other than it's 'flute like'!!

Really? Exactly how long do you need? Here's a recent quote by way of an example: "I started to play and the tone was complex, yet full, sweet, and rich." Started. Doesn't seem like it took hours to decide how to label the tone there. Those adjectives wouldn't be out of place on websites devoted to wine, coffee, chocolate, fruitcake or single malt whisky. They obviously mean something to the person who wrote them, but they mean nothing to me, as far as a flute-player's tone is concerned.

You can set your MP3 player to repeat as often as you like, if 40 seconds of fluting isn't sufficient for someone to decide which of the "usual suspects" from the list of abstract or food/animal/light-related adjectives to use in describing the player's tone.

Here's another quote (paraphrased by me) posted recently: "Prattens have a full, round sound and a bottom that honks nicely, Rudalls have a sweet second octave and a more focused sound, Nicholsons seem to be intermediate between the two." If there are such clear-cut differences in tone between different types of wood and different 'styles' of instrument, then at the very least the "it's the flute" proponents should be able to provide a clear-cut answer to questions B and C.

I will say this for BillG and others: I'm not funnin' you, much as I enjoy humour. The results, when I post them, will hopefully speak for themselves.

MichaelS: mic placement didn't change. Sorry about the background noise, the player was recording at home, not in a studio.

It would be helpful if people would note track times where they hear changes, rather than say stuff like "the end is different to the beginning" or "There's a bit that's different in there" (they haven't said the latter but y'know what I mean!).

[Jumbuk]

This reminds of those blind wine tests, where the pretensions of professional wine tasters are exposed - except that there do exist genuine pros that really do manage to get it right an amazing number of times.

I think you have already made your point Gary, irrespective of the actual instruments involved. If there really are members of this forum that can tell the difference, they have gone conspicuously quiet!

[Jens_Hoppe]

Who mentioned single malt whisky??!

Ahem.

Gary, I think the reason for the somewhat sparse amount of replies you have had is that people think you are trying to set them up or trap them (with good reason, probably), and who wants to put their foot in it?

I don't think even the strongest proponents of "it's the flute" would deny that the player contributes to the sound too. And with you being the originator of this test, rather than someone in the flute camp, people have every reason to believe that there's some kind of trickery involved.

I think flutes sound different. Years back at a concert with Desi Wilkinson, between tunes he changed from his regular blackwood tooter to an unlined yew flute. And the sound was markedly, clearly different. The point here being, I don't have any evidence why the sound was different, I just know it was. And common sense points to the one aspect that obviously changed - the flute - to at least have some impact on that. That's not to say that Desi couldn't bend and shape those flutes backwards in order to achieve all kinds of interesting sounds, but that in itself does not rule out that the two flutes inherently (ie. played with more or less the same embouchure) would have somewhat different tonal properties. After all, there's probably a reason why Desi chose to change his instrument, and it probably wasn't to show off his ownership of more than one flute.

The same way, I think I can detect tonal differences at various points in the recording. Are they really there, or is it just me? And if they are there, by what are they caused? Feck if I know.



BTW, I am obviously in the much-ignored (not radical enough?) camp of "It's the player AND the flute".

[Wormdiet]

I'll bite.

1) The thing is, GK, that different flutes often DO sound different. Not on a home recording, perhaps, but definitely in person, which we can't replicate here (and is very difficult on a studio recording too). This is borne out in my personal experience and the personal experience of just abut any other flute player I've discussed it with (in person, not in trolls' online playgrounds). Why is this so hard to accept?

2) Why do you care that people use figurative language to describe these differences? I'm being serious here. You have some sort of obsessive crusade against it that I find baffling. There are more important things to worry about.

3) If the whole point of this drill is that "flutes sound like flutes" what are the practical conclusions one can draw? That it doesn't matter which flute one buys? Should we pick one maker's model and get Fender to mass produce them?

4) Are you trying to make the point that it's the player for 99% of what we hear? The entire forum has signed onto this multiple times.

[jmccain]

INTERESTING THING #X Is that the there is an expectation for a good assessment on a home recording of a new player on unfamiliar flutes on a low-quality format (128 mp3) over computer speakers.

Best, John

[GaryKelly]

Gary, I think the reason for the somewhat sparse amount of replies you have had is that people think you are trying to set them up or trap them (with good reason, probably), and who wants to put their foot in it?

I don't think even the strongest proponents of "it's the flute" would deny that the player contributes to the sound too. And with you being the originator of this test, rather than someone in the flute camp, people have every reason to believe that there's some kind of trickery involved.

I am mortified to think that there may be those around here who would suspect me of such Machiavellian caddery.

I do take your point about people not wanting 'to put their foot in it' though. Many have entered into the spirit, which is cool. But of course, having the courage of one's convictions sometimes requires a few uncomfortable moments standing up for them.

The best I can do, without posting the answers of course, is to offer my assurances that this isn't a trick, or a trap, but a genuine 'experiment' which might at the very least serve to make people think a bit before endlessly repeating tired old clichés and meaningless creamy rounded complex yet rich adjectives. Newbies believe this stuff to be part of the lexicon of flute-playing, they learn them here and repeat them parrot-fashion, on and on... The oft-repeated lie thus enters popular mythology and becomes the truth.

If my assurances aren't worth anything, so be it. The answers will I am sure be another Interesting Thing to add to the list of Interesting Things accumulated thus far.

[GaryKelly]

1) The thing is, GK, that different flutes often DO sound different. Not on a home recording, perhaps, but definitely in person, which we can't replicate here (and is very difficult on a studio recording too). This is borne out in my personal experience and the personal experience of just abut any other flute player I've discussed it with (in person, not in trolls' online playgrounds). Why is this so hard to accept?

So do the test, J, and post your answers. And please don't talk about trolls, or the Mods will come wading in here double-quick.

2) Why do you care that people use figurative language to describe these differences? I'm being serious here. You have some sort of obsessive crusade against it that I find baffling.

I think I addressed this above, I was typing while you were posting. See my comment about the oft-repeated lie, and the endless repetition of meaningless drivel. If I told you my tone was 'rich, creamy, subtle yet full-bodied, sweet in the second octave' would you have the slightest clue what I was going on about? Would you care? Would you base a purchasing decision on it? Believe it or not, some people do buy flutes based on chud like that, and then think they've been sold a McChud because it doesn't sound anything like the glass of Bull's Blood they were led to believe it would do.

3) If the whole point of this drill is that "flutes sound like flutes" what are the practical conclusions one can draw? That it doesn't matter which flute one buys? Should we pick one maker's model and get Fender to mass produce them?

That's not "the whole point of this drill", and I don't subscribe to your practical conclusions, for many reasons which've been discussed in other threads.

4) Are you trying to make the point that it's the player for 99% of what we hear? The entire forum has signed onto this multiple times.

Not true. The entire forum has signed on to no such thing, as even a cursory glance through the threads on the front page of this forum will show.

Why are you being so aggressive? Do you feel I've somehow threatened you by posting a simple experiment?

[Markus]

I think flutes sound different. Years back at a concert with Desi Wilkinson, between tunes he changed from his regular blackwood tooter to an unlined yew flute. And the sound was markedly, clearly different. The point here being, I don't have any evidence why the sound was different, I just know it was. And common sense points to the one aspect that obviously changed - the flute - to at least have some impact on that. That's not to say that Desi couldn't bend and shape those flutes backwards in order to achieve all kinds of interesting sounds, but that in itself does not rule out that the two flutes inherently (ie. played with more or less the same embouchure) would have somewhat different tonal properties. After all, there's probably a reason why Desi chose to change his instrument, and it probably wasn't to show off his ownership of more than one flute.

BTW, I am obviously in the much-ignored (not radical enough?) camp of "It's the player AND the flute".

How about.. "It's neither. It's the interaction between the player and his/her flute"?

[Jens_Hoppe]

BTW, I am obviously in the much-ignored (not radical enough?) camp of "It's the player AND the flute".

How about.. "It's neither. It's the interaction between the player and his/her flute"?

Same thing, as far as I am concerned.

[dhamilingu]

I appreciate what Gary is trying to do here. However, I think the various threads on this topic are polarizing the debate a little: either you're a "flute" person or a "player" person, with no chance of any middle ground. Two things seem obvious to me:

1. The limitations of a flute (or any instrument) are probably not reached by novices, but only by very experienced players who can manipulate tone basically at will. What this means is that, for most of us, any reasonably good flute will do for a long, long time, until tone production, embouchure, etc. are mastered. The qualification to this point would be that absolute beginners (like me) should still obtain a decent flute (one that is tuned properly and well-designed), in order not to be frustrated by the obvious limitations of a really awful instrument. But, barring that, subtle differences in design are probably not that important for a while.

2. However (and this has been said already a few times) (and leaving aside for the moment the question of playing ability), it seems obvious to me that there MUST be SOME differences between different models of flutes for reasons of pure physics - altering the shape of the instrument and its features must result in some slight changes in the sound it produces (leaving aside the question of who is producing the sounds). This is NOT to say that a skilled player can't significantly change the tone of a single instrument at will. It is also NOT to condone the thoughtless use of qualitative adjectives to describe tone - although I don't see what the fuss is about on that point.

Music is sublime, and defies easy description through words, and we've all heard (possible) urban myths about famous musicians, asked to comment on the piece that they've just played, who simply play it again a second time. Words fail us, but they are pretty much all we've got on an internet forum. Where I agree with Gary is that such descriptive terms should not be taken to REFLECT SONIC REALITY in any meaningful way - they are simply an extension of our relationship with our instruments.

I disagree with Gary when he tries to marginalize practical questions, because as he himself points out, people buy instruments based on this qualitative "chud". I agree that people should not be misled into buying a particular instrument on the assumption that they, too, will be able to reproduce the buttery, sweet, delicate-yet-rough, honking-yet-subtle tone as described by someone else. But, at the same time, someone looking to buy an instrument needs some way to discriminate between them. Qualitative adjectives, certainly not; but what do we do in their place?

I would REALLY like to hear from some of our resident and distinguished flute makers, who have been relatively silent during this discussion. Surely someone like Terry, who has meticulously studied instrument design for the purpose of making his own, is in a position to comment on the relationship between design and tone?

Cheers to all,

Pete

[Loren]

Years back at a concert with Desi Wilkinson, between tunes he changed from his regular blackwood tooter to an unlined yew flute. And the sound was markedly, clearly different. The point here being, I don't have any evidence why the sound was different, I just know it was. And common sense points to the one aspect that obviously changed - the flute - to at least have some impact on that. That's not to say that Desi couldn't bend and shape those flutes backwards in order to achieve all kinds of interesting sounds, but that in itself does not rule out that the two flutes inherently (ie. played with more or less the same embouchure) would have somewhat different tonal properties. After all, there's probably a reason why Desi chose to change his instrument, and it probably wasn't to show off his ownership of more than one flute.

Jens, I've asked this before, but I don't recall seeing an answer posted: Are you certain the Yew flute wasn't in a different key that Desi's main flute?



Loren

[BullFighter]

if you want to know if there are different sonding flutes... don't record yourself playing them, play them in front of other people.

many times people prefer the flute you think is the worst!

[I.D.10-t]

I thought that the sound clip was a lot of fun.

Must have been a lot of work. (Thanks Gary)

I'm still working on telling where the changes are.

When you post the results, please use tiny font so it is easy to skip over without reading.