Best beginner session flute?

[jb]

Flutered, just out of interest, how far is the head cork from the embouchure hole in your flute? Mine seems to be closer than usual, about 13mm to centre of hole, but still plays well and in tune.

Jack

[Jon C.]

Flutered, just out of interest, how far is the head cork from the embouchure hole in your flute? Mine seems to be closer than usual, about 13mm to centre of hole, but still plays well and in tune.

Jack

Hi Jack,
The norm is 19mm but sometimes up to 21mm. 13mm for a flute in F... The rule of thumb is the farther away from the emb hole, the flatter the second octave. (Did I get that right Loren?:oops:)
You can adjust it with a tuner, the cork mostly effects the higher end second octave, A,B, and C#. It will also effect the volume, if it is to close to the Emb. hole.

[michael_coleman]

The further away the cork the flatter the second octave.

[jb]

Jon, thanks for the info. I had read that before and I tried moving the cork to 19mm. It certainly gave a stronger low d but I felt the flute was not so well in tune and on one other Tony Dixon flute I was able to check, it was about the same (12.5mm). I wondered if maybe Tony tuned them specifically at this setting, which is why I would be interested to know the distance on Flutered's flute (or any other Tony Dixon Polymer 3 piece for that matter).

Jack

[Flutered]

Well Jack,
I've checked my Dixon 3 piece and the cork is 15mm to the centre of the emb hole. I've never touched it since I got it from Tony.
I generally find that I need to open the top joint about 10mm to tune to A or G. I did mail Tony about this after I got it and he said it should be open about 4-5 mm to be in tune. How do you find this?

[jb]

Thanks Flutered.
4-5mm seems about right for me.

[Doug_Tipple]

A general rule-of-thumb for setting the tuning cork is to place the cork according to the formula: bore diameter = distance from cork to center of embouchure hole. I sometimes see this formula written: .95 bore diameter = distance to center of embouchure hole. To set the tuning cork, I make a mark on a wooden dowel (straw, chopstick, etc.) that is a bore diameter from the end of the dowel. The mark should be visible in the center of the embouchure hole when the cork is in the standard position. The formula indicates that the cork placement is a function of the internal diameter of the flute. This means that there is no one distance that is going to be standard for all flutes. Also, keep in mind that movement of the tuning cork does not change the fundamental pitch of the flute; it merely adjust the intonation, which refers to the flute being in tune with itself. Changes in fundamental pitch is done with the tuning slide.

However, you may find that the second octave intonation isn't the best when the tuning cork is in the standard position. For a conical-bore flute you would expect the intonation to be corrected by the conical bore of the flute body. On a cylindrical-bore flute the intonation should be corrected by either a tapered headjoint (Boehm silver flute) or a wedge inserted in the headjoint to serve a similar purpose. Without some sort of correction in the headjoint in a cylindrical-bore flute, it is advantageous to set the tuning cork closer to the embouchure hole to help raise the pitch of the notes of the upper part of the second octave.

Finally, the best way to set the placement of the tuning cork in any flute is to use an electronic tuner rather than to rely on a formula. Play a low D, first and second octave D while watching a tuner. Also do the same thing for other notes (G for example) on the scale. Adjust the position of the tuning cork until you have the intonation that you can live with.

[jb]

Kelcat wrote:

Dad has just informed me that Tony Dixon doesn't just live "in the area" he lives in the same town as the folk club i go to!
And luckily one of the founder members of the folk club i go to is a guitar maker who happens to know Tony Dixon.
Hpefully I'll be able to go have a proper chat to the man in person. So even if i don't buy a flute from him then I'm sure I'll come away ith a wealth of information.

Kelcat, did you get to speak to Tony Dixon yet?

[Loren]

The problem with the cork placement suggestions as given so far, is that proper positioning of the cork stopper is dependant on two factors not mentioned yet:

A) Knowing the slide extension distance the maker intended

and

B) How you as a player typically blow the flute - sharp, flat, or exactly how the maker does.


If the internal diameter of HJ bore is 19mm, and you set the cork stopper at 19mm from the center of the embouchure hole, then the intonation will only be "correct" with the tuning slide set at a certain position. If however you blow a little sharper or flatter as a player than the maker (or than the maker intended), or if you simply set the tuning slide at a certain distance (without knowing what the maker intended the proper slide extension to be) and then lip or roll the flute "in tune" the stopper will need to be adjusted to some distance other than 19mm in order to get the best intonation.

This was essentially the reason for R&R to produce the patent head, as it made the flute "foolproof" with regards to setting the intonation - adjustments to get "the flute" in tune by adjusting slide length, automatically adjusted the stopper distance to the corresponding proper position for best intonation.

Unfortunately what often happens with people at home, is that they adjust the stopper to the "right" position as described often here on C&F - one HJ internal diameter back from the center of the embouchure hole- but they don't also set the tuning slide to the proper distance that the maker intended for a warm flute at room temperature. So, more often than not, the flute will still play not quite right through 2 octaves, because the slide isn't in sync with the best stopper position. At this point folks tend to move the stopper a bit to compensate, and then more slide adjustment follows, which leads to a cycle of tail chasing. Particularly if one hasn't yet learned to play the second octave without going sharp.


Loren

[Jack Bradshaw]

The problem with the cork placement suggestions as given so far, is that proper positioning of the cork stopper is dependant on two factors not mentioned yet:

A) Knowing the slide extension distance the maker intended

and

B) How you as a player typically blow the flute - sharp, flat, or exactly how the maker does.

Expanding on (B) a bit..................the higher a jet velocity the player can achieve, the closer the cork can be set, as this tends to raise the first octave WRT the second.......(and the volume...)

[Casey Burns]

Jon C. wrote:
"The norm is 19mm but sometimes up to 21mm. "

I don't find this to be the norm.

I set mine at 23mm - then adjust the 2nd octave to the first by undercutting the toneholes, which raises the 2nd octave more than the first.

Casey

[trish]

You were asking about playing English morris tunes on simple system flute. I play these, as well as Irish music - as long as melodeon players are playing a DG box you should be OK. If you're going for the bamboo option, you could get them in other keys too, in case people are (inconsiderately!) playing in C/F or worse

[Jack Bradshaw]

Jon C. wrote:
"The norm is 19mm but sometimes up to 21mm. "

I don't find this to be the norm.

I set mine at 23mm - then adjust the 2nd octave to the first by undercutting the toneholes, which raises the 2nd octave more than the first.

Casey

Yup ! Raises the Q too...(the headspace flattens the upper octaves by lowering the Q due to the cutoff frequency being lowered as the cork is moved out) There is an embouchure effect as well...any thoughts on that ???

[jb]

From checking 3 Dixon flutes, including Flutered’s, it seems that Tony sets the cork quite close (13-15mm ). This works fine, they play well and in tune. However being someone who likes to tinker I moved the cork to 19mm. This produced a stronger low D but caused tuning problems over 2 octaves, as described by Jack Bradshaw.

I played with the cork in this position for a few weeks but constantly struggled to sound in tune in a session. After moving it back to its original position I can play better in tune so it would seem that Tony tunes his flutes with the cork closer to the embouchure on purpose.[/quote]

[Loren]

Jon C. wrote:
"The norm is 19mm but sometimes up to 21mm. "

I don't find this to be the norm.

I set mine at 23mm - then adjust the 2nd octave to the first by undercutting the toneholes, which raises the 2nd octave more than the first.

Casey

Yup, very common on traverso's as well - lot's of undercutting of the typically smaller tone holes, and the ideal stopper placement much further back.

Then there's the issue of what the flutemaker has in mind with regards to how many octaves he's trying to optimize the flute for - things will be a bit different when shooting for 3 octaves as opposed to 2.


Loren