Open Letter to Dale Wisely
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Cees
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- Tell us something.: I became interested in the beauty and versatility of Irish whistles and music over 20 years ago when I first found the Chiff boards. Yes, I do have WHOA, and I love my whistles. :)
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I usually stay out of "controversial" threads, but I thought I'd post my thoughts this time.
I don't personally know either Azalin or Steve, and have nothing against either of them. I have enjoyed both of their posts in the past and have been reading them for nearly a year. During that time I've heard nothing but good things about Steve and Shanna Quay. This hasn't made me buy anything from there, however--not because I don't want to, but because I don't have money to buy whistles very often (with two small children and one on the way, and a husband still in school...)
Seeing someone's negative comments about Steve's business isn't going to make me say "Oh, well, so and so said this, so I won't ever buy from there." I think any intelligent person, when buying something from an internet vendor, will check out and compare prices to see where they can get the best deal for their money, as well as service, customer care, etc. I know I always do, on the rare occasions that I buy online.
My point is, Azalin's comments did absolutely nothing to sway me towards one side or the other. I am perfectly capable of looking up whistles I want for myself and deciding when and where to buy them and how much I want to pay for them. So I think Steve is making a big deal out of absolutely nothing. I doubt very many, if <b>any</b> people on this board would have changed their plans about shopping at Shanna Quay based on one person's views that the merchandise offered there was "too expensive."
I do think, however, that responding negatively to criticism does turn people off in a big way. Take, for example, recent posts by a certain Susato maker...if I didn't already dislike Susatos, the attitude expressed in those posts would certainly make me decide never to buy one.
Responding calmly and positively has proven to do the opposite...take the recent Serpent whistle controversy. The maker could have been very angry and upset over the slamming his business was getting before anyone even knew anything much about it. Instead, he responded cheerfully, openly, honestly, and with a sense of humor. That made a lot of people, me included, look upon him and his business with great favor.
My advice to Steve is, calm down and relax...you aren't going to lose potential customers over one person's viewpoint of your business, but you CAN and may already HAVE lost some by responding so angrily. I haven't changed my mind about shopping at your store if I ever get some extra whistle cash...so please relax and consider the effect your words may be having.
I don't personally know either Azalin or Steve, and have nothing against either of them. I have enjoyed both of their posts in the past and have been reading them for nearly a year. During that time I've heard nothing but good things about Steve and Shanna Quay. This hasn't made me buy anything from there, however--not because I don't want to, but because I don't have money to buy whistles very often (with two small children and one on the way, and a husband still in school...)
Seeing someone's negative comments about Steve's business isn't going to make me say "Oh, well, so and so said this, so I won't ever buy from there." I think any intelligent person, when buying something from an internet vendor, will check out and compare prices to see where they can get the best deal for their money, as well as service, customer care, etc. I know I always do, on the rare occasions that I buy online.
My point is, Azalin's comments did absolutely nothing to sway me towards one side or the other. I am perfectly capable of looking up whistles I want for myself and deciding when and where to buy them and how much I want to pay for them. So I think Steve is making a big deal out of absolutely nothing. I doubt very many, if <b>any</b> people on this board would have changed their plans about shopping at Shanna Quay based on one person's views that the merchandise offered there was "too expensive."
I do think, however, that responding negatively to criticism does turn people off in a big way. Take, for example, recent posts by a certain Susato maker...if I didn't already dislike Susatos, the attitude expressed in those posts would certainly make me decide never to buy one.
Responding calmly and positively has proven to do the opposite...take the recent Serpent whistle controversy. The maker could have been very angry and upset over the slamming his business was getting before anyone even knew anything much about it. Instead, he responded cheerfully, openly, honestly, and with a sense of humor. That made a lot of people, me included, look upon him and his business with great favor.
My advice to Steve is, calm down and relax...you aren't going to lose potential customers over one person's viewpoint of your business, but you CAN and may already HAVE lost some by responding so angrily. I haven't changed my mind about shopping at your store if I ever get some extra whistle cash...so please relax and consider the effect your words may be having.
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Azalin
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FJohnSharp,
I think your comment is full of wisdom, and I agree with you. I like provocative threads, what can I say?
Through all that, many of my questions at the beginning and end of the thread were left unanswered, and I'm still curious about them. If some people, instead of suggesting that the thread is deleted, would try to come up with some honnest answers, that would be great, if not then I agree for sure to leave the thread alone. That's for the people who believed me when I said that I just wanted to have some information about things I was puzzled about.
Maybe Dale would like me or the others to let the thread die, in which case I would do so as I think he's had enough headaches already.
I think your comment is full of wisdom, and I agree with you. I like provocative threads, what can I say?
Through all that, many of my questions at the beginning and end of the thread were left unanswered, and I'm still curious about them. If some people, instead of suggesting that the thread is deleted, would try to come up with some honnest answers, that would be great, if not then I agree for sure to leave the thread alone. That's for the people who believed me when I said that I just wanted to have some information about things I was puzzled about.
Maybe Dale would like me or the others to let the thread die, in which case I would do so as I think he's had enough headaches already.
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TelegramSam
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Yes, Loren, this is kindergarten compared to some of your antics, but it's still ridiculous. And yes I'm in college now, and it's going as well as can be expected (I hate homework!!!!)On 2002-09-16 10:33, Loren wrote:On 2002-09-16 10:19, TelegramSam wrote:
This board used to be so much more civilized than the other internet "hang outs" of mine.
So much for that...
Gee Sam, So far this thread has been positively tame by my standards
How's school going by the way? First year of College is it?
Loren
I really don't understand what the big deal is. So somebody doesn't like Steve's store and decided to whine about it. So what. If you don't like it, don't buy from it.
Steve, don't get your knickers in a knot just because somebody doesn't like your store. Whining and arguing with them only makes you look even dumber than the person whining and arguing about your store.
*throws everyone a penguin* BE NICE!!!!
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PhilO
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I tend to agree with Azalin's aunt. My honest feelings here? I found Azalin's original post perhaps a bit unnecessarily barbed, but not over the line.
I found Steve's response to be also unnecessary and unwise in light of the mostly supportive comments.
I will continue to make up my own mind about where and how to do business based on my own experiences and research, which does include feedback from members whose opinions on these things I've come to value.
Dale, I think you should reconsider your decision or at least your basis for it. No one should ever have to give up his or her right to take appropriate legal action as desired. I think if someone actually got stupid enough to repeatedly bring unfounded or frivolous lawsuits with respect to open Board exchanges, by all means get them off the Board! However, under this set of circumstances, I think it a bit premature and somewhat unfair to hold Steve to such an up-front agreement.
This can be a difficult Board to set parameters for because we have collectors, both professional and amateur players, dabblers, dealers and makers. Therefore "openly" discussed issues like pricing and quality can take on a personal and caustic tone. Dale and Rich have done well so far as have the members - close the thread (with Dale's as the last comment), reinstate Shanna Quay (assuming that the apology is acceptable to you notwithstanding the agreement not to sue anyone), and let's move on.
Regards,
PhilO
I found Steve's response to be also unnecessary and unwise in light of the mostly supportive comments.
I will continue to make up my own mind about where and how to do business based on my own experiences and research, which does include feedback from members whose opinions on these things I've come to value.
Dale, I think you should reconsider your decision or at least your basis for it. No one should ever have to give up his or her right to take appropriate legal action as desired. I think if someone actually got stupid enough to repeatedly bring unfounded or frivolous lawsuits with respect to open Board exchanges, by all means get them off the Board! However, under this set of circumstances, I think it a bit premature and somewhat unfair to hold Steve to such an up-front agreement.
This can be a difficult Board to set parameters for because we have collectors, both professional and amateur players, dabblers, dealers and makers. Therefore "openly" discussed issues like pricing and quality can take on a personal and caustic tone. Dale and Rich have done well so far as have the members - close the thread (with Dale's as the last comment), reinstate Shanna Quay (assuming that the apology is acceptable to you notwithstanding the agreement not to sue anyone), and let's move on.
Regards,
PhilO
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DazedinLA
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Much of what I would say has already been said:
1. Both overdid it a bit.
2. In my book, any real damage suffered by Steve in this affair will result from how he reacted to Azalin, not by what Az actually said.
3. In the end, Dale should reinstate his links to Steve and Bygones all around.
To all that has been said I will contribute this: The discussion of legal rights and "threats" of legal action have brought an element to the board to which I have had a very negative emotional response. Heated and controversial threads are as integral to this board as whistle reviews and photos of Ms. Corr, and the membership always has, (and I hope always will) find/found reasonable ways to deal with Flagrant and Inflammatory Unreasonableness. There was nothing in Az's post that I saw would not have been handled in the same fashion...indeed it wasn't long before people chimed in with glowing customer service testimonials and price comparisons and all that.
What disturbed me the most about this thread was the introduction of a new tactic which I sincerely hope will not become a new and future occurrance on the board, namely the use of the "I'm gonna seek legal advice because I think you are libelling me" card when someone doesnt like whats been said in a post.
Obviously, if someone really did libel someone else, then there is no special immunity because it was said in a forum. But lets be real, here...I find it hard to believe that anyone really believes that anything AZ said in his post had any real negative impact on Steve's business, but more than that, if anyone (particularly whistlesmiths and vendors) ever feel that something some yutz says on this board is libelous, then don't talk about getting legal advice, JUST GO AND DO IT, get your legal advice, get your lawyer's opinion on whether you have a real issue, and then govern yourself accordingly in a discreet manner off forum. In most cases I suspect the reaction will be exactly as it was in Az's case...the calm professional will laugh at the Childishness of Whistlery and suggest that there are more constructive things in life on which to focus.
I have always said that this is a great board that can overcome just about everthing (Yes, even your most vitriolic moments, Loren). Not so on this issue. While no legal action is likely ever to be warranted as a result of any discussion on this board, I do think that if this becomes a more regular dynamic in the future, the nature of the forum will change for the worse, that fear and hestitancy will stifle discussion and fair criticism and fair negative comments that are legitimate topics of conversation for the value and benefit of all, and that the value and integrity of this forum will be seriously compromised.
It does surprise me when vendors fail to realize what a wonderful, positive and rewarding marketing opportunity situations like this (i.e. an apparently critical and potentially factually incorrect post by an apprently disgruntled or unhappy customer or potential customer) can be if handled properly, and how damaging situations like this can be from a public relations point of view if not handled properly.
1. Both overdid it a bit.
2. In my book, any real damage suffered by Steve in this affair will result from how he reacted to Azalin, not by what Az actually said.
3. In the end, Dale should reinstate his links to Steve and Bygones all around.
To all that has been said I will contribute this: The discussion of legal rights and "threats" of legal action have brought an element to the board to which I have had a very negative emotional response. Heated and controversial threads are as integral to this board as whistle reviews and photos of Ms. Corr, and the membership always has, (and I hope always will) find/found reasonable ways to deal with Flagrant and Inflammatory Unreasonableness. There was nothing in Az's post that I saw would not have been handled in the same fashion...indeed it wasn't long before people chimed in with glowing customer service testimonials and price comparisons and all that.
What disturbed me the most about this thread was the introduction of a new tactic which I sincerely hope will not become a new and future occurrance on the board, namely the use of the "I'm gonna seek legal advice because I think you are libelling me" card when someone doesnt like whats been said in a post.
Obviously, if someone really did libel someone else, then there is no special immunity because it was said in a forum. But lets be real, here...I find it hard to believe that anyone really believes that anything AZ said in his post had any real negative impact on Steve's business, but more than that, if anyone (particularly whistlesmiths and vendors) ever feel that something some yutz says on this board is libelous, then don't talk about getting legal advice, JUST GO AND DO IT, get your legal advice, get your lawyer's opinion on whether you have a real issue, and then govern yourself accordingly in a discreet manner off forum. In most cases I suspect the reaction will be exactly as it was in Az's case...the calm professional will laugh at the Childishness of Whistlery and suggest that there are more constructive things in life on which to focus.
I have always said that this is a great board that can overcome just about everthing (Yes, even your most vitriolic moments, Loren). Not so on this issue. While no legal action is likely ever to be warranted as a result of any discussion on this board, I do think that if this becomes a more regular dynamic in the future, the nature of the forum will change for the worse, that fear and hestitancy will stifle discussion and fair criticism and fair negative comments that are legitimate topics of conversation for the value and benefit of all, and that the value and integrity of this forum will be seriously compromised.
It does surprise me when vendors fail to realize what a wonderful, positive and rewarding marketing opportunity situations like this (i.e. an apparently critical and potentially factually incorrect post by an apprently disgruntled or unhappy customer or potential customer) can be if handled properly, and how damaging situations like this can be from a public relations point of view if not handled properly.
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StevePower
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I see...and that *wasn't* a threat? Right?Steve, My girlfriend's family lives at 15 minutes from your shop, so we might just end up having a chat in person as I'm around often, being in Canada right now.
Either way, you're not welcome in my shop. If you enter it, I'll call the Gardi and tell them about the very *real* physical threat that I percieved you made against me in writing. And I doubt that, unlike your aunt, they will laugh. (legal action is OK in a civilised society, violence is not, OK?). Now, I'm off the board, for good.
Steve
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-09-16 14:01 ]</font>
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Wizzer
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Steve seems to be smarter than we give him credit for.
By posting here he has drawn more attention to his site and his products that he could possibly get by paid advertising.
As most business people will tell you it is difficult to get your name out there. Steve has now succeeded in making his name common place with most of the whistlers who use this board and when we see his products we will make the connections that we know the name if we do not remember from where.
Since we are his target market and we will remember his name he has achieved his goal.
Now he will see if our memory is of good thoughts or bad because that translated into dollars.
By posting here he has drawn more attention to his site and his products that he could possibly get by paid advertising.
As most business people will tell you it is difficult to get your name out there. Steve has now succeeded in making his name common place with most of the whistlers who use this board and when we see his products we will make the connections that we know the name if we do not remember from where.
Since we are his target market and we will remember his name he has achieved his goal.
Now he will see if our memory is of good thoughts or bad because that translated into dollars.
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Teri-K
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Common Sense Rule: NEVER stand upwind during a pissing contest
I see...and that *wasn't* a threat? Right?
Either way, you're not welcome in my shop. If you enter it, I'll call the Gardi and tell them about the very *real* physical threat that I percieved you made against me in writing. And I doubt that, unlike your aunt, they will laugh. (legal action is OK in a civilised society, violence is not, OK?). Now, I'm off the board, for good.
Steve
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-09-16 14:01 ]</font>
Teri
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ChrisLaughlin
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ChrisLaughlin
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If anyone is interested (and I am), Mr. Powers had a very similar exchange with Phillipe Varlet on the IR-TRAD list not so long ago.
Here's a quick snippet from one of the posts in the related discussion:
"Mr. Power is no stranger to threats of a legal nature. He has issued them
himself to a friend of mine a little while ago. "
Check out this link if you are interested in reading more:
http://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2 ... 18682&I=-3
If you want to read the rest of the thread (and you should, it's great fun), go back to the search page and search for messages containing the subject "so you know who you are dealing with". :roll:
Best,
Chris
Here's a quick snippet from one of the posts in the related discussion:
"Mr. Power is no stranger to threats of a legal nature. He has issued them
himself to a friend of mine a little while ago. "
Check out this link if you are interested in reading more:
http://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2 ... 18682&I=-3
If you want to read the rest of the thread (and you should, it's great fun), go back to the search page and search for messages containing the subject "so you know who you are dealing with". :roll:
Best,
Chris
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serpent
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All I have to go on is the single experience I've had with Steve. A few months ago, I bought a CD from him. I thought the price was a bit high by US standards, but hey, the CD wasn't available anywhere else, so I bought it anyway. It was wonderful! Well worth the price, and I highly recommend "Teantrai", but that's not what this is about...
Imagine my surprise when I received not only the CD, but a nice fabric whistle-case with Velcro closure, suitable for both a C and a D, and a short, but nice, hand-written note from Steve, thanking me for my purchase!
I will be buying from Shanna Quay again, I can guarantee you.
I charge $90USD plus S&H for a high whistle. They don't cost me anywhere near that much in materials and tool depreciation. Is my price too high? There are people who think it is, and they don't buy one. There are also people who think it's too little, because they understand the effort, care, and service that goes with the price. And there are those who vote favorably with their money, and I, like Steve, try to do my very best to give them value, and to let them know their business is appreciated.
Their is a huge difference between charging what you think an item is worth, and trying to nick your customers for everything you can get!
And the bottom line: If you don't like what someone charges for an item, just go find it elsewhere - vote with your pocketbook.
Best wishes,
Bill "Serpent" Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com
Imagine my surprise when I received not only the CD, but a nice fabric whistle-case with Velcro closure, suitable for both a C and a D, and a short, but nice, hand-written note from Steve, thanking me for my purchase!
I will be buying from Shanna Quay again, I can guarantee you.
I charge $90USD plus S&H for a high whistle. They don't cost me anywhere near that much in materials and tool depreciation. Is my price too high? There are people who think it is, and they don't buy one. There are also people who think it's too little, because they understand the effort, care, and service that goes with the price. And there are those who vote favorably with their money, and I, like Steve, try to do my very best to give them value, and to let them know their business is appreciated.
Their is a huge difference between charging what you think an item is worth, and trying to nick your customers for everything you can get!
And the bottom line: If you don't like what someone charges for an item, just go find it elsewhere - vote with your pocketbook.
Best wishes,
Bill "Serpent" Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com
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Wandering_Whistler
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I considered this notion myself. After lookin at the two threads relating to Steve's website, I took a gander over that way myself. I saw nickel generation whistles at 14 euros ($13.59 according to xe.com), which is about $10.00 more than I paid for mine. I don't think I'll be shopping at steve's site any time soon for generationsOn 2002-09-16 14:06, Wizzer wrote:
By posting here he has drawn more attention to his site and his products that he could possibly get by paid advertising.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-09-16 14:53 ]</font>