Moral dilemna: was Landis' cheating worth it?

[Joseph E. Smith]

Taking performance enhancing steroids solely for fame/glory/money is quite another. I feel sorry for anyone who feels they need to do that.

I do not feel the least sorry for anyone who has been caught using performance enhancing substances during or prior to any sporting event let alone the Tour or the Olympics. These atheletes know what they are doing is not allowed, is unhealthy and basically cheating.

It is pretty hard for me to feel sorry for a cheater, they know better. "Dance the tune, pay the piper".

[cowtime]

One of my all time favorite sayings -

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he would never be caught.

[BillChin]

If anything I am angry at Landis. Angry because he cheated. Angry because he lied about it. Angry because his excuses shift every five minutes and are lamer than a third grader who didn't do his/her homework. Angry because when high profile athletes do it, so many young people follow their example and take poor quality dangerous drugs or supplements just to make their high school team or win a local race.

At least Landis got his 15 minutes of fame. Many kids risk permanent damage for almost nothing. I believe that when someone famous does it, more young kids are likely to risk it.

The test allows a level to be four times the normal average. My cynical conclusion is that many are doping right up to the line, to test at 3.8 times normal so they have an edge, but not enough to fail. I believe that Landis found himself in an impossible situation being so far behind on that fateful day and made the "deal with the devil" and took a double or triple dose. Unlike Faustos in the story, so far Landis has not repented or asked forgiveness.

[brewerpaul]

Taking performance enhancing steroids solely for fame/glory/money is quite another. I feel sorry for anyone who feels they need to do that.

I do not feel the least sorry for anyone who has been caught using performance enhancing substances during or prior to any sporting event

I don't feel sorry about them being caught-- I certainly agree that by the rules of the sport they deserve what they get. What I do feel sorry for is their feelings of lack of self worth which makes them feel that they need to do such things.

[bradhurley]

I'm not normally into conspiracy theories, but is there any possibility of sabotage in all this? Could a rival have spiked Landis's water or food? It just seems improbable to me that someone who knows he'll be tested would go ahead and use a performance-enhancing drug anyway. Yes, I know that doping has been widespread among bicycle racers for years, yet it still seems hard to believe that Landis would do something that stupid when the stakes were so high.

[Jerry Freeman]

I've been wondering about this, too.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[bepoq]

It's possible Brad, but pretty unlikely. All the riders know each other quite well, which would make it odd to begin with, although I suppose a support team member might have done it on his own (that doesn't sound that likely though, now I say it), and on the day it happened, Landis would not have been perceived as that big a threat, being 8 minutes down, generally considered a huge lead. It would also be an interesting risk. What if he didn't get caught and beat you?

[jim stone]

I think it's terrible because I don't think Jesus would ever take synthetic testosterone, even it if made him able to run faster from the centurions and jump higher and carry more sins. But then, I've checked the scripture, and I'm pretty sure there is no evidence Our Lord and Savior ever rode a bicycle, either. Maybe if he had ridden a bicycle, then he would have taken some steriods, and then he could have kicked some Roman ass on the way to the Golgotha, which by the way, means "Place of the Skull."

God Incarnate on synthetic testosterone?
A bit like the Holy Ghost on amphetamines.
The mind boggles, guy!

Mark Twain wrote about siammese twins, one whom was a
temperance fanatic, the other a soak. The first would
show up at temperance meetings drunk as a lord,
but it wasn't his fault.

The Trinity has its own possibilities:

Jesus on steroids = the Father on steroids.
Omnipotence pumped up and hyperventilating.
Not a pleasant thought, frankly.

Back to racing--what I can't figure out is how Landis could
be so stupid, if indeed he was stupid. Obviously they were
going to go over him with a fine toothed comb and a lint
brush looking for illegal drugs. He knows what Armstrong
went through. One doesn't even have to take drugs to be
charged with taking them.

[gonzo914]

Mark Twain wrote about siammese twins, one whom was a temperance fanatic, the other a soak. The first would
show up at temperance meetings drunk as a lord, but it wasn't his fault.

An excellent story -- The Siamese Twins

Having forgotten to mention it sooner, I will remark in conclusion that the ages of the Siamese Twins are respectively fifty-one and fifty-three years.

[Lambchop]

Mark Twain wrote about siammese twins, one whom was a temperance fanatic, the other a soak. The first would
show up at temperance meetings drunk as a lord, but it wasn't his fault.

An excellent story -- The Siamese Twins

Having forgotten to mention it sooner, I will remark in conclusion that the ages of the Siamese Twins are respectively fifty-one and fifty-three years.

I love that story! Mark Twain has to be one of my favorite writers. After P.G. Wodehouse, of course.

Thank you for sharing it, Gonzo. Great website, too!

[lenf]

I'm afraid my dwindling estimation of the chances that Floyd is telling the truth dropped another 50% this morning on watching the CNN stream of his interview. The lawyerly coaching was just WAY to evident, and it was quickly clear that he didn't for a moment consider stepping outside that and speaking for himself.

I have this image of a cartoon of Landis on a bike, but the tubes and forks are made of syringes.

[fel bautista]

Doping has been around in cycling since at least the fifties. Jaques Anquetil, one of cycling's gods that won the tour five times once said, "You don't climb the Alps on mineral water." Tom Simpson died on the slopes of Mont Ventoux while chasing the yellow jersey when his heart gave out from amphetamine abuse. Cycling has long struggled with performance enhancing drug issues and continues to do so, and is certainly dirty in that respect, although how dirty in comparison to American football and baseball would be an interesting debate. ... I find it a bit odd that such a strong opinion should be put forth from someone who begins by confessing to almost no knowledge of the sport, but I suppose that is the internet.

I really wanted to keep out of this thread, fearing that JES would lock it.
I've been following cycling since the mid 60s- I remember the L.A. Times article that was written when Tom Simpson died. I'm tired of all the inuendo and rumors and just want the sport to come clean. I like riding my bike and I love racing so it really does hurt when C***P like this happens. I can't believe that testosterone was used as the stimulant. That's been around for ages. Tests have been developed. From what I've read, it was the same lab that tested Armstrong, so they have a vested interest to get it right the second time. It would not surprise me to have a "conspiracy" theory started up.

And don't get me started about Tyler Hamilton...

My riding buddies and I want to volunteer to ride next year's tour. We would harken back to the early days when amatuers (that probably took brandy to ride the 450 km stages) could ride...And the only drugs we would take would be the one to convince ourselves that we could race 3000 kilometers. We could be the oldest Tour riders with a cumulative 100 years of ride experience. We would ride steel bikes; none of that fancy carbon and Ti stuff. HAH!!! 'nuff said on my part

[fel bautista]

I have this image of a cartoon of Landis on a bike, but the tubes and forks are made of syringes.

You should see Patrick o'Grady's cartoon in Velonews- not too far off.

[chas]

It's possible Brad, but pretty unlikely. All the riders know each other quite well, which would make it odd to begin with, although I suppose a support team member might have done it on his own (that doesn't sound that likely though, now I say it), and on the day it happened, Landis would not have been perceived as that big a threat, being 8 minutes down, generally considered a huge lead. It would also be an interesting risk. What if he didn't get caught and beat you?

I've wondered about it, too. You would think that if he was doping, he'd know enough to spike his blood to just below the legal limit. But in addition to these arguments against it, there's also the fact that he just happened to make a remarkable turnaround the day he just happened to test positive for elevated testosterone. Kind of like Raphael Palmeiro who had never hit more than 26 home runs before Jose Canseco allegedly introduced him to steroids, and hit at least 39 home runs almost every year afterward but pled bafflement when he tested positive. I just hope that, unlike Raffy, Landis owns up to it.

[bepoq]

Hi Fel, couldn't agree more - I met Harry Hall in the mid-eighties, Simpson's mechanic, (got a bike from him) extaordinary story of Simpson saying "put me back on my bike." I too am mad for the sport to come clean. In fact I've only followed things distantly the last couple of years compared to the way I used to due partly to Armstrong being up against straw men (not meaning to take anything away from him - you can only stuff who's put in front of you) but mainly because of the clear almost universality of drugs in the sport that I got resigned to just preceding Armstrong's reign. It can be so good - Hinault/Lemond/Roche after the crash - Lemond and Fignon - Roche chasing down Delgado through the fog and going away in an ambulance - Chiapucci finally cracking Indurain on the way to Sestriere - Pantani just seeming to float up Alps - except then Pantani gets himself thrown out and you think if they pumped me full enough of drugs I could climb an alp too (possibly not quite that effortlessly). I don't mind if they all go slower, it's not about time trialling faster than Lac de Madine that makes the sport great, it's Rominger hurting himself in desperation to just see any pain on Indurain's face, or Lemond dropped by Chiappucci chasing him down the Tourmalet, or Tchmill, almost unrecognisable, hopping the roundabout on the way to Roubaix. Ah, I think you are right though, maybe radonneuring is the way forward. What's the frame in your avatar by the way, I can't quite make it out - like the brooks jersey though, I never ride anything else!

cheers,

Ben

Hah, just noticed your signature, sorry... nice frame though.