Question about learning, forgetting, learning again, etc

[In The Woods]

OK, so the subject line is confused, but so am I. When I learn a new tune, I go through a period of getting it down fairly well at slow speed. Then, I'll go through another period of having muddled fingers in passages that I did just fine in the day before. It seems to me that I'm going to have to play a tune many, many times just to get it down. I've read somewhere that I need to play a tune at least 100 times before it becomes mine.

I was just wondering if anyone else has a similar problem. I am learning by ear, a new experience for me, and backing it up with music. Right now I'm working out of Mel Bay's 110 Ireland's Best Tin Whistle Tunes, V. 1. They one I seem to have the most trouble with memorizing the muscle memory with is Father O'Flynn (p.22)

I also seem to need to keep playing it at a slow tempo, which is OK by me, but I keep losing it when I speed up a little. I agree that slow is good to learn, but am I rushing things by wanting to play fast(er)? Probably am.

Anyway, thanks for listening, and best regards to all.

Steve Mack

[Meadhbh]

Your learning process seems much like mine. I have just grown to accept the fumbling stage. Generally, I start learning a tune one day...the next it seems like I have never seen the piece let alone play it...then suddenly on the third day it is back under my fingers again. Starting slow is good. Keep playing it that way until you start to anticipate what comes next without hesitation. When you start to speed up, maybe only do a notch or two on the metronome. I don't speed up until I can play through four times comfortably at the same tempo. Everyone has their own "method of madness" when it comes to learning a tune, but that is my general process.

Good luck and just be patient!!

[Martin Milner]

I think many of us tend to try to go too fast too soon. It certainly takes a number of repetitions to get a tune in your finger memory, and getting it wrong just slows the process down, or worse, you learn the tune wrong.

Once it's REALLY in your fingers, after those 100 slow plays, you should be able to take it much faster with no problem.

Some tunes are easier than others. Tunes are built around runs, scales, arpeggios, and other bits, and it's the other bits that cause the problems for me.

[bjs]

This is a problem. I tend to play my favourites and the most recent. The result is that some tunes that I used to really enjoy I no longer play. I think a 100 plays is a little conservative. My learning technique now is to play from the dots over and over til I get up to a reasonable speed and then I find it pretty easy to play by ear. I have a record of all the tunes I have learned together with opening notes, which I keep meaning to make serious use off but don't get round to it. eg along with regular practicing toss some coins to decide which of the old ones to resurrect on that day.
The power law of practice is interesting. speed to carry out a task is proportional to a fixed negative power ofthe number of times the task has been performed. I haven't found any research on finding the power for tunr learning. It's a more accurate measure than the well known idea of diminishing returns. Clearly there is a limit to how fast a tune can be played.
25 seconds seems a good time to go for for a jig. Yes?

[bepoq]

I think that having trouble with bits of tunes that you had the day before can be one of the side effects of learning from the dots. If you learn by ear, the tune very definitely gets in your head - sort of by definition before you can have it under your fingers. With the dots it doesn't. You are basically doing two seperate things; trying to learn the tune and then trying to learn how to play the tune. If trying to get it under your fingers depends on an imperfect understanding of the tune (or imperfect site reading like mine) your fingers will struggle with it. If your brain stumbles over how the tune goes, even for an instant, your fingers will stumble immediately too. One more reason to learn by ear I suppose.

As to the speed and consistency of remembering tunes, memory studies strongly suggest that inconsistent repetition really helps with this sort of memorization. That is, it is better to play the tune for 15 minutes, play or do something else for a while, play it again for 5 minutes, play or do something else for a while, play the tune for 20 minutes, etc. etc. Your 40 minutes total on the tune there will be more effective than if you just went round the tune for 40 minutes straight. If you alternate it with other tunes, of course, it has the happy side effect of associating that tune with other tunes and thus bringing it to mind whenever you, or someone else plays one of those tunes, however, complete disociation with the task at hand (whistle playing) by doing something unrelated (the dishes) is also supposed to help.

As regards speed, a disciplined and gradual increase in speed is a useful way to go, but probably only after you have got the tune well in your head and under your fingers (I don't really believe this 100 times stuff as, for me anyway, it varies wildly from tune to tune both in number of times played and time spent). The old metronome is really useful with this. Start at say 72 bpm for a reel. Play it 5 times say. turn the metronome up 2 notches, play it another 5 times - another two notches, another 5 times etc. up until you a speed you begin making mistakes and stop there for that session (or if you are really enthusiastic turn it back down and start working it up again). I usually finish with a relatively slow few times round it at a speed I am perfectly comfortable with to be sure I've well got it and to be sure that I'm getting good variation and solid ornaments and not pushing myself into a fast, but boring way of playing it.

[Jim McGuire]

Try listening (great if you commute to somewhere) to a tune over and over, with some iterances slowed down.

Also, lilt/sing the tune. This accesses a different part of the brain and helps the reinforcement.

Nice article in the current Scientific American on learning and the expert mind - the article concentrates on chess but extends to other endeavors.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... 414B7F4945

[bepoq]

Really enjoyed the article, at least the middle bit that actually talks about theories and findings. The modified chunk theory, particularly as regards variation of the template, really speaks to the way we vary tunes as well as the way we apprehend and learn at speed by ear. Hmmm...

Ever read Treitler's Homer and Gregory? - fantastic notions of reconstruction, formula, memory etc as applied to orally transmitted artistic traditions (plainchant and epic poetry)

[swizzlestick]

Jim,

Thanks for the link. VERY interesting article! Now I have to figure out how to apply it.

Reyd

[bjs]

Food for thought from this quote:

what matters is not experience per se but "effortful study," which entails continually tackling challenges that lie just beyond one's competence. That is why it is possible for enthusiasts to spend tens of thousands of hours playing chess or golf or a musical instrument without ever advancing beyond the amateur level

[fluteress]

They say it takes two days after learning something for it to truly be 'there' (in your fingers, etc.) I've definitely found this to be true in my own playing and practicing, so your noticing it being better the third day makes sense!

I usually rotate what I play or practice every other day, that way I don't learn anything in ways I wouldn't want to play it!

[Talbert St. Claire]

One of the best tools to hear what is happening in your playing is to simply record yourself. Recording yourself as brutal as that may sound lends itself to so many possibilities for advancement.

If you can hear the mistakes on a very regular basis, you will find the most trouble that you are experiencing.

Since you are learning to play by ear, play along with the CD. Record yourself alone as well as you following the music. Any mistakes will show itself. If you realize that you are having the most trouble with timing, then learn to tap your feet to the tunes. As it was already suggested, play them slowly at first, then quicken the pace. Again, the recording device can be your best feedback.


Talbert St. Claire

[missy]

are you "concentrating" on certain parts or passages of the tune, and not the entire thing? I found myself doing that, and it didn't work.

What I've come up with now, if I need to concentrate on a certain spot, I ALWAYS play the part of the song leading into it when going over that spot. I found just concentrating on the "hard" part, I wasn't really getting the tune as a whole, but only picking up bits and pieces. By working with the lead ins, and the parts afterwards, it really becomes a whole to me.

However - I also find for some strange reason I often can't remember the A part of a song. I need to start with the B part, THEN I get the A part. I have no idea why this is!

[jim stone]

'She will leave you and then, come back again.
A pretty girl is just like a pretty tune.'

Aint the brain fun? The hardware is too soft
to run the software.

Thanks for the helpful thread.

[Jim McGuire]

One of the best tools to hear what is happening in your playing is to simply record yourself...Talbert St. Claire

This is excellent as well as playing the tune(s) for someone - whether or not they are into the music or not. The 'pressure' to pull it all together, even for a non-trad person, extends your comfort zone and becomes helpful!

Since you are learning to play by ear, play along with the CD...Talbert St. Claire

This is also used as a recording aid in the studio - in the headphones is some great musician that you play 'along with' and hopefully get a better result on tape.

[waltcamp45]

Food for thought from this quote:

what matters is not experience per se but "effortful study," which entails continually tackling challenges that lie just beyond one's competence. That is why it is possible for enthusiasts to spend tens of thousands of hours playing chess or golf or a musical instrument without ever advancing beyond the amateur level

I was also struck by this point. It's similar to what I've heard about athletic training, such as weight lifting. To grow muscle, you have to push youself a bit beyond what you're currently capable of. That spurs growth. Doing just (or less than) what you can will keep you in shape, but it won't improve your shape (so to speak).

Walt