Questions on embellishments (rolls, triplets)

mattpiper · Post by **mattpiper** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:57 pm

I am a long-time Highland Piper who began on the Uilleann Pipes last December (have a half-set from David Daye) and am using the Heather Clark tutor. Overall, I think it's been a pretty good tutor, though like many pipe tutors (Highland, Uilleann or other), the pace is quite quick, and certain embellishment are left not fully explained. Here are some of the questions I've been unable to answer on my own, so I pose them to this knowledgeable body of folks.

Rolls (Exercise 20 on page 29)
E: the tutor shows a bottom D gracenote separating the second two notes. Since E is (at this point in the tutor) is always played with the chanter closed on the leg, does this mean that the chanter is actually closed, so no sound comes out? Or is it a one finger tap to ghost D? Or is the chanter actually quickly lifted and lowered off of the leg to hear a real (though very rapid) bottom D?

F-sharp: the tutor shows an E gracenote separating the second two notes. To play this, do I very rapidly switch the bottom hand to an E and then back to an F-sharp? Do I just tap the middle finger, closing the chanter and momentarily stopping the sound?

G: Makes sense.

A: Similar to the questions on E and F-sharp, the tutor shows an G gracenote separating the second two notes. To play this, so I very rapidly switch the fingers to a G and then back to an G? Do I just tap the top ring finger, closing the chanter and momentarily stopping the sound?

The Highland Piper in me wants these gracenotes to be quick, one-finger motions, but it the written gracenotes are to be heard, that cannot be the case--unless the notes written are meant to say "close the chanter and stop the sound"

* * * * * *

High E-gracenote from back D? The tune The South Wind has on two occasions an high E-gracenote from back D. Short of playing a real, though short high E, I can't figure out how to make that work...

* * * * * *

Triplets (Lesson 12 on page 31)
In Garrett Barry's Jig, there are many triplets, as this embellishment has just been discussed.

In bar 3, the is a D C A triplet. The tune in question is in G, so the C is a C-natural. For this triplet, does one quickly pop out a C-natural (lifting both top index finger and bottom middle finger), or since it is such a quick movement, does one just use a single finger (top index finger in this case) and have a brief C-sharp? It is worth noting that the C-sharp has not yet been learned in this tutor.

In bar 4, the is a second octave G F-sharp E triplet. The question again, is how true are these triplet notes tot he real fingerings of the notes? She discusses the high G, and how it is played with only one finger raised, but fails to discuss other notes. Is the E played by lifting both the ring finger and pinkie, or just the ring finger?

* * * * * *

Thanks in advance for all that take the time to answer these questions. I look forward to having this stuff cleared up!

Matt Willis
http://www.mattpiper.com
Piper with The Killdares

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:58 pm

http://www.uilleannobsession.com/faq.html

Could this help? Ummmmmm, yes, I think it could. Beyond this, get thee to a piper.

oliver · Post by **oliver** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:11 pm

Don't have the time to answer everything right now... anyway the rolls :

The E roll: if you play on the knee, the chanter is closed between the last two notes. Some pipers also play the ghost D.
The E roll can be played with the open fingering as well, which means you actually lift the chanter and leave the little finger on it. Try to find what suits you best. Can also depend on the tunes.

To play the F roll, just lift your third finger while tapping your middle finger (open fingering, but you can keep the chanter on the knee anyway).
You can also just tap your middle finger, the chanter will be closed, no problem at all except if you have an easy reed, you can reach the second octave...

The A roll : just tap your top ring finger. It will do. (You can also play it sort of open, depends on what effect you want...)

Hope that helps.

billh · Post by **billh** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:52 am

Short answer is mostly 'yes' to your speculations. Slightly longer answer is that most of these rolls have several flavors regarding fingering:

* 'closed' rolls tend to have a silence in place of the 'pat' (lower grace note)
* 'open' rolls have a note as the pat, but may require a different fingering (for instance, Fsharp roll may require a three-fingers-off F# in order to achieve a clean 'E' pat)
* open rolls can be played with the chanter off the knee (again, yet another set of fingerings required, probably shouldn't tackle this immediately).
* closed rolls can be combined with a 'pop' or 'bark' (momentarily lifting the chanter) such that instead of a silence you get 'D'

Also there are of course rhythmic variants as well, for instance "short" vs "long" rolls, and subtle variations of the internote timings. All in good time

The e grace on the back d is most likely the 'ghost d', which is discussed later in the Clarke tutor.

Not being a GHB person myself, I can't comment from direct experience, but I get the impression that there's a temptation towards the fly-before-you-walk thing when skilled GHB folks pick up the UPs. Best to focus carefully on the fundamentals first, there's a lot of subtle difference in the foundation skills between the 2 instruments as I understand it. Not to assume you would make this mistake of course

HTH

Bill

patrick Jacob · Post by **patrick Jacob** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:40 am

Hi
I was playing the highlandpipes for quite a long time and started to play the uilleann pipes a time ago. Result: after 24 years I sold all the scottisch pipes

! For me the Sean Potts tutor workt well in the beginning. You can find it on www.madfortrad.com Besides this it's very important to listen to solo albums . For me Mikie Smyth, Brian McManara and the old recordings were very helpfull. But the most important for me were the private lessons from Mikie Smyth. So, try to find a good piper for some lesson or try to go to a tionol. When you see things it's more easy to understand.
By example: "crossing noises" are realy terrible for the HP. For uilleann pipes it's an other thing. Staccato by the way, makes it realy great. But the most important is: don't play to fast. Also be not to fast with the technical stuff.

Good Luck and a lot of pleasure with the Uilleann pipes

Patrick

mattpiper · Post by **mattpiper** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:41 am

Thank for the responses so far! I really think I have a good grasp on rolls. Triplets, on the other hand....

As for the flying-before-I-walk thing, I've had the Uilleanns since December, and I'm only now getting to triplets and staccato playing. I am a full-time Highland piper, giving lessons, playing private performances, performing with The Killdares, and I am also a certified elementary school teacher--all of this experience has helped me realize the importance of going slowly and taking the time to learn things properly and at a deliberate pace. Definitely no flying here.

Before the Highland pipes, I played various whistles and the concert flute, so the concepts of the second octave were already understood, which has definitely given me a leg up over many Highland pipers starting into Uilleann piping.

I have recently found a group of Uilleann pipers in Austin, and will be meeting up with them at their monthly club meeting in August, and my goal is to have all the tunes from the Clarke tutor up to Garrett Barry's Jig memorized and in the fingers. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group when it comes to the subtleties of this instrument, but in the meantime...

Triplets? Or more accurately, staccato playing--single finger motion for each note, or actually fingering the notes properly but quickly? Is a high E played staccato by lifting just the ring finger or is it played by lifting both bottom fingers? Is a staccato C-natural simply ignored and played as a C-sharp (just the index finger)?

Again, many thanks to all. And I wanted to give a "shout out" to Pat D'Arcy--I had the pleasure of watching him perform with the Blair Band at Grandfather Mountain. The Killdares shared the same grove as the Blair Band.

billh · Post by **billh** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:01 am

mattpiper wrote: As for the flying-before-I-walk thing, I've had the Uilleanns since December, and I'm only now getting to triplets and staccato playing.

That's still a rather accelerated schedule, even for an experienced musician.

Triplets? Or more accurately, staccato playing--single finger motion for each note, or actually fingering the notes properly but quickly? Is a high E played staccato by lifting just the ring finger or is it played by lifting both bottom fingers? Is a staccato C-natural simply ignored and played as a C-sharp (just the index finger)?

One finger stacatto notes are common. But 'stacatto' is a misnomer anyhow, some things marked stacatto aren't really played strictly stacatto (closures both sides of the note). Some things just won't work, like the one-finger E on the knee. Nope. "Stacatto" E will take two fingers[1]. Probably you discovered this already...

I suggest you get to some advanced piping instruction if you can.

Bill

[1] some wag on this list will probably produce a mutant chanter where this works, but I will ignore him or her.

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:35 pm

mattpiper wrote:Again, many thanks to all. And I wanted to give a "shout out" to Pat D'Arcy--I had the pleasure of watching him perform with the Blair Band at Grandfather Mountain. The Killdares shared the same grove as the Blair Band.

Shout right back at ya!

It was good to meet you in North Carolina... what a weekend! Not sure if it's been suggested but the Na Piobairi Uilleann videos "The Art of Uilleann Piping" would answer your questions and more www.pipers.ie - Rob Forkner will also be able to help.... he's one of the pipers there in Austin. His email addy is metloef@hotmail.com

Good luck!

Patrick.

fel bautista · Post by **fel bautista** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:02 pm

Does the southern California crowd now have change avatars form license plates to trolls?? Probably, because of the heat!

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:58 pm

Check out this link to see what I'm up to... these boys are bigger than the Beatles - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPc931hf ... ed&search=

Careful now,

PD.

kenr · Post by **kenr** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:24 am

Skipping over the OT bits and picking up on what Bill has said about an "accelerated schedule". There's currently a series of programmes on BBC Radio4 about memory and one touched on the development of specific bits of the brain in (for example) musicians, there are parts of the brain that remember the actual tunes as well the physical manipulation of the instrument which actually grow as you learn/ practice. Anyway it all gets very complicated but two statements are worth bearing in mind:

First it takes between 1,000 and 2,000 hours of directed tuition to become competent on a musical instrument (that's five hours a day, every day for a year or an hour a day for five years - take your pick).

Second it takes about 15,000 hours of playing to become expert (thats about 4 hours a day, every day, for ten years).

The moral of this tale is however good you think you are, you are a novice for a hell of a long time, and some of us are going to be just above competent most of our lives.

Matt, try pacing the Clarke tutor out over the first 1,000 hours and see how many repeats the brain needs to remember exactly how those tunes go and get all the personal help and advice you can from the group in Dallas.

Ken

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:50 am

mattpiper wrote:
I have recently found a group of Uilleann pipers in Austin, and will be meeting up with them at their monthly club meeting in August, and my goal is to have all the tunes from the Clarke tutor up to Garrett Barry's Jig memorized and in the fingers. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group when it comes to the subtleties of this instrument, but in the meantime...

I suggest, if possible, meeting with one or two of the Austin Pipers every week would do more for you than anything we could write and tell you here.

But as it has already been pointed out, don't be in a hurry, seriously. One of the worst things you can do is learn bad habits and then have to go backwards and change them all... and as anyone can tell you here, it's a real pain in the kiester. Haste is one of the primary culprits for learning bad habits. Another is being sequestered from other pipers.

jqpublick · Post by **jqpublick** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:01 pm

Joseph E. Smith wrote: Haste is one of the primary culprits for learning bad habits. Another is being sequestered from other pipers.

AAAAAAAAAAAughhhhh!!!! Stompitystompitystamp (pulls hair, deep breath) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGUGHGGHGHGcoughcough....

dammit. Pooh, even.

Isolation sucks.

Mark

patrick Jacob · Post by **patrick Jacob** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:17 pm

Patrick D'Arcy wrote:Check out this link to see what I'm up to... these boys are bigger than the Beatles - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPc931hf ... ed&search=

Careful now,

PD.

Great , better than pipes !